Sex Education in Primary Schools - I've been to the meetings and I still feel uncomfortable, is it just me?

[Rhubarb]

I sat through a meeting last night about the kind of sex education that will be provided to our children, starting from Reception up to Year 6.

I agreed with everything the guy from the Education Dept said, about openess and focusing more on relationships and emotions etc. Then they showed up clips of the video they'll be using to teach the kids. So far so good.

In the section aimed at 5-7 year olds it showed a cartoony illustration of a girl's bits and went through the names - this leads to the vagina, this is a clitoris. Then it said "the clitoris is a small bump at the front, it can sometimes get hard and this can feel nice" - we weren't shown but apparently the video says the same thing for the boys. An audible gasp and murmurs rose up from us, the parents.

For the age bracket 7-9 they add the words "if you touch it, it can feel nice".

Myself and some other parents felt uncomfortable with this and we had a discussion with him at the end. Everything he said seemed to make sense, about not making sex seem dirty, it's natural, it feels nice etc. Not being ashamed of their body parts, and focusing on the fact that girls can feel nice as well as boys.

So why do I still feel uncomfortable with this bit? I don't think I would have an issue with that aimed at older children, say in Year 6. But for this age, I have this niggly feeling that just isn't right.

So often as parents we can only rely on our instincts and we are told to follow them as much as possible. Yet when it comes to sex ed we are told that our instincts are just our hangups about sex and to ignore our feelings and trust what they are saying.

So I wondered what you lot had to say about it all?

rhubarb, very calm post!!! do you think though that mentioning that girls have a clitoris and if you touch it it can feel nice is making a big deal of it? just because that jumps out at you, do you think it would jump out at your dd or just be part of the whole thing.

sometimes i think as adults we place an emphasis on things that doesn't feel the same for kids. no reason why a child would home in on that is there?

I agree.

maybe that is the crux of the whole thing. clitoris and masturbating do jump out at us because we didn't have this kind of sex education, because for the main part children brought up in the 70s and 80s were brought up to feel that sex was a bit smutty and dirty and secret (gross generalisation i know).

whereas this video at such a young age means that there is no emphasis on a clitoris or masturbating or sexual intercourse...just that they are part of what you need to know about your body and how it works, what it is to be a boy or a girl, and how babies are made. part of a bigger picture.

Is the word 'clitoris' a scientific term though? Or is it just the word for something, in the way that 'elbow' is the word for that corner between the different bits of your arm? If it's the scientific term, what the everyday one? What's the word a girl should use to explain e.g. where a pain is, if there is one there?

I have hangups about all sorts of words that I can hardly bring myself to say and I wish my parents had just used the real words from the start so they were just normal words. Sadly I'm passing my hangups on as I still flinch when I say some words and find myself using euphemisms instead! I have no problem with the kind of video described here.

Rhubarb - if children 'fiddle' rather than 'masturbate' (which the OED doesn't define in terms of age and thoughts at all, it just says manipulation of genitals for sexual pleasure), why is talking about a clitoris feeling nice an inappropriate introduction to something to do with sex? It's clearly in there to explain something some children may have noticed when fiddling - why would the child make the jump to thinking it's something more, something to do with sex and sexual relations? If you really are happy with (a) the fiddling and (b) that the fiddling is not dirty, why is the video wrong to refer to something some children may have noticed when doing just that? What's it got to do with sex at all?

It would make more sense if children didn't fiddle at all - if there really was no such thing as children fiddling (not just that some children didn't) - then it would be odd to mention something (clitoris feeling nice) that would only ever occur in their lives as part of their adult sexuality. Then I can see that it would be bringing something in 'early', as it were. But that isn't the situation - loads and loads of children touch themselves and find pleasure from it and just because some children don't, that doesn't mean that for those nonfiddling children the video is bringing a sexual thing in inappropriately early, surely? Some children not having fiddled can't change the information about clitorises into a sexual thing just because they may not do it until they're much closer to adulthood - surely it just makes it into an irrelevant thing for them, nothing worse than that?

'sexual pleasure' - are children doing it for sexual pleasure? I don't think so. They are doing it for comfort, as they would suck their thumb. WE associate it with sexual pleasure, but children don't have those associations, to them it just feels nice and that's that. Which is why I disagree with the word 'masturbation' when used in relation to children, I don't think that is appropriate in this context.

There is nothing wrong with children doing this for comfort, but the vid in mentioning it, does make it into a bit of a big deal. After all, it doesn't mention the other comfort things kids do - just this one. And also as jooly says, you need to put that into context. You can't just tell very young children that touching their privates feels nice without then going on to tell them that no-one else should touch their privates and neither should they touch anyone else's.

In explaining that - do you not think kids will become confused? It feels nice, so why can't other people touch it? Why can't I touch my friends? How do you explain that? We were told the teacher would explain about personal safety - so I guess we are reliant on the teacher there. Why do a DVD that goes into these things and then leave the most important message out?

It's fine for children to know about their bodies and to know how their bodies work. But I think as adults, we've become a little over-zealous in trying to make sex sound natural and nice and lovely and to get it all out into the open. There really is no great need at their age.

I have an appt to see the sex and relationships co-ordinator of the school on Tuesday so I shall go through these issues then.

Sophable - are you implying that I am not always this calm????

In answer to a question from rhubarb some way back we felt guilty re fillding due to parental influence.

If we had been told at a young age along with peers that this was perfectyly normal, that would have made quite a positive difference to us.

My poarents we usefless at this srt of thing. And i hope i will be better than them but i would be very pleased if my input is supported by educational/state input from a young age.

tonton, I'd like to see my input supported too, but I don't see that happening. I see myself being forced into discussing things with my children before I think they are ready.

I know what you mean about negative parental influence, but unfortunately you will get this with or without sex ed in schools. In fact it may have confused you because the school would be telling you that it's ok and your parents would be saying that it isn't.

yes i was rhubarb!

and that I am not always this calm too!

Must be our age sophable - that and we've probably run out of fighting steam for each other!

You are the only Mumsnetter who can really fly off the handle with me (and I with you I'm sure) and not carry a grudge on btw. We've had some really bad rucks, but you never carry it on and are even gracious enough to agree with me on other threads! In this funny Mumsnet we have atm, that is really appreciated!

(You're still wrong though!)

awww rhubarb thanks...i really needed that atm...appreciated x

I was about 10 years old when they started inflicting sex education on us, personally I didn't feel it applied to me at the time, did'nt really want to know about it and found the whole experience of having my teachers tell me about it toe curlingly embarrassing. Perhaps I'm just hopelessly sheltered.
I am very much opposed to my children having anything to do with sex ed before puberty. Younger children already get quite enough info on the mechanics of human biology in their science lessons.

I think that why you have to start sex education way before 10 so its isnt embarrassing and is just something else children are interested in.

I havent been back on since my initial post and am still with Rhubarb LOL

SOmeone asked how do I KNOW - well I don't KNOW but I DO know I have never ever seen her/caught her whatever you want to call it.
I do encourage her to be open with me and she is happily open with her body and discusses her "bits" as she prefers to call it.
I am just very glad we were on holiday LOL

(she knows all about periods and has breast buds)

Its fine to be uncomfortable with the word masturbation, but its actually normal in child devlopment to use this term. Its just a technical term or stimulating a certain part of the body which gives a certain physical sensation or response, isn't it? My children have a book called "Let's talk". I cannot remember who have written it, but it has got a little note from Penelope Leach in it. It is suggested that this book is appropriate even for pre-schoolers. They name all the body parts including the clitoris, so it seems the clitoris has gone mainstream!

Can I ask how many of the people who are with Rhubarb on this have seen the video in question? In order to agree that it's content is unacceptable you would need to have seen it.

I have seen it and I think it's worth mentioning that the information about the clitoris forms a very, very small part of a much longer film which is part-information film, part-drama (the whole thing is based around a story featuring a young boy whose cat is about to have kittens) and which essentially celebrates the many differences between human beings including, race, colour, creed and (for a brief moment) genitalia.

Out of context it sounds much more graphic and detailed than it actually was.

I started discussing all things body/sex related from when they were pre schoolers. they all know and understand all words (including swearwords) that are relevent and not one has any embarrassment discussing anything with me, dad or each other

In my tiny sample group, I think knowledge was the best way to go. I have friends that have been too embarrassed or felt their kids didn't need to know. Not one of those teens are open or comfortable talking about sexual/puberty matters with their parents

Some little children do masturbate to climax so I think using the word masturbate is totally appropriate when discussing 'fiddling'

I don't understand why anyone thinks a child/girl/woman should be shielded from knowing they have a clitoris. We don't shy away for boys penis/foreskin/scrotum/testicles etc, why clitoris? Knowledge and understanding will empower our daughters in their future.

Hooray for scaredoflove.

I'm sorry, I did hope to give a definite definition of masturbation using an online dictionary, but even with my Secure settings on Google, I just keep getting porno sites, which says a lot about how people view masturbation doesn't it?

I don't know about you, but when the word 'masturbation' is used, it usually means the stimulation of a sexual organ whilst thinking of sexual practices such as those with George Clooney whilst trying to achieve a climax. Ditto with men (although not with Clooney unless they are that way inclined). Children do not do this. They fiddle because it's comforting, because it feels nice, they have none of the sexual connotations we have with this kind of stimulation. So I do not use the word masturbation in relation to children.

Do you not realise that by using such adult words to describe what children do, you are just playing into the hands of paedos? That is exactly what they want to hear and whilst you may not mean it like that, they don't give a shit, it just gives them more ammunition for their argument that one day paedophilia will be accepted as the norm such as homosexuality is accepted now. How do I know this? Well I've read transcripts of interviews with them - yes I was a crim law student. Perhaps that is why I have such 'hang ups' about this topic.

Anyways, I have a bad weekend ahead, so I should leave this now.

Sophable - sorry mate, I know you'll disagree with that! Wishing you all the best, you have my full respect and you are a fearsome opponent!

good luck with the weekend of doom whatever it is rhubarb.

catholic family sophable. Not good, not good at all. Feel sick in fact.

But thanks to you too, you're one of the reasons I stay on Mumsnet, because you can actually have a bloody good ruck with someone and still remain a damn fine and reasonable person!

No Rhubarb, I apologised to you earlier but i now think you are being silly. I am not playing into the hands of paedophiles. I think you are the on who cannot distinguish adult and child sexuality. You were a criminal law student, not a child psychology or development student.

I am not sure about your google settings, but if you enter children and masturbation into google I get the following links and no porn:

parenting.ivillage.com/tp/tpdevelopment/0,,3q9m,00.html

www.babycentre.co.uk/toddler/development/socialemotional/masturbation/

You have written a lot about how you feel ridiculed and called a prude on these threads. Well, I object to being told I use the same language as a paedophile and suggest you are the one confusing child and adult sexuality and not me.

I googled masturbation, to get the general view of masturbation. I don't like an adult word being used to described children.

Is that so wrong?

And no, I'm not a child psychologist. I was a criminal law student. I won't go into what I read because it's disturbing. But to use adult language to describe children's sexuality is wrong in my books.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point yourself. I'm saying that I don't like that language being used. I'm saying that I am using my experiences as a student and a mother to be concerned about the sex education on offer for my children. And I'm not alone, those who have not studied crim law show the same concerns. It just doesn't feel right. And we are not all catholics, we have not all been brought up in strict families.

We are not all the same and neither are our children. Is that so hard to grasp?

you cannot help but have your buttons pressed by your family because THEY INSTALLED THEM.

stay in your adult. you know what i mean.

I left them a looong time ago sophable. I have confronted my personal demons. Yet they are family and therefore have a hold still, unfortunately. I hate them.

Luckily they have absolutely no influence over my children. My children are having a completely different upbringing to the one I had.

I appreciate the support