Sex Education in Primary Schools - I've been to the meetings and I still feel uncomfortable, is it just me?

[Rhubarb]

I sat through a meeting last night about the kind of sex education that will be provided to our children, starting from Reception up to Year 6.

I agreed with everything the guy from the Education Dept said, about openess and focusing more on relationships and emotions etc. Then they showed up clips of the video they'll be using to teach the kids. So far so good.

In the section aimed at 5-7 year olds it showed a cartoony illustration of a girl's bits and went through the names - this leads to the vagina, this is a clitoris. Then it said "the clitoris is a small bump at the front, it can sometimes get hard and this can feel nice" - we weren't shown but apparently the video says the same thing for the boys. An audible gasp and murmurs rose up from us, the parents.

For the age bracket 7-9 they add the words "if you touch it, it can feel nice".

Myself and some other parents felt uncomfortable with this and we had a discussion with him at the end. Everything he said seemed to make sense, about not making sex seem dirty, it's natural, it feels nice etc. Not being ashamed of their body parts, and focusing on the fact that girls can feel nice as well as boys.

So why do I still feel uncomfortable with this bit? I don't think I would have an issue with that aimed at older children, say in Year 6. But for this age, I have this niggly feeling that just isn't right.

So often as parents we can only rely on our instincts and we are told to follow them as much as possible. Yet when it comes to sex ed we are told that our instincts are just our hangups about sex and to ignore our feelings and trust what they are saying.

So I wondered what you lot had to say about it all?

SGB - now there's an idea. Perhaps all classes should be optional.

I find it insulting that posters like Fairymum can be so condescending as to laugh at our concerns.

I must remember that next time a mum tells me about her concerns over her children, I must remember to laugh at her and make sarcastic jibes, because I'm sure that would be really really helpful to her.

You may not agree with those of us who find this unsuitable. But usually in this country, we are given choices. We can choose our own parenting methods, we can choose to breastfeed or not, we can choose to do controlled crying or not, we can choose to be a working mum or not. People have opinions about these things and they express them well, but at the end of it all, it's a choice that we parents are confident we have.

Not so here. I would like my child to be given sex education that complements what she is told at home. I would like to choose how much information she is given. But I am being denied that choice and I'm angry about that.

Comparing it to a history lesson is a shite analogy - the full horrors of history are not revealed until secondary school, when it is deemed they are old enough to make sense of such information. It seems here that no such thought has gone into it.

I will reiterate a point I made earlier. That school lessons are tailored for the varied age ranges of the children and even for their abilities. All lessons, that is, apart from this one, which assumes that they are all at the same level.

Rhubarb: how many school classes involve whole-class teaching and how many involve staggering the teaching depending on the DCs level? (I honestly don't quite know).
WRT history I remember being taught about the Great Plague in primary school: most of the kids took a gleeful delight in trying to outgross each other with drawings of 'loads of dead bodies' (and the teaching would have been very, very, soft-pedalled anyway), one or two were a little bit upset.

Let's try another more appropriate example: Schools teach about healthy eating these days - should vegetarian or vegan parents insist on withdrawing their DC from any discussion involving the preparation or eating of meat?

Rhubarb, I apologise for insulting you in that case. I have enjoyed reading your posts!

Just seen this. Rhubarb I agree with you 100%.

I have children in year2 and I do not feel they would be ready for all this at all.

To ignore the opinion of the most important person in a childs life (ie the parent) smacks of overly pc state meddling and is way too heavy handed.

Maybe they should produce some sort of literature, if they feel the need, and offer it home to guide those in answering questions but only at the parents' discretion and if they ask for it. Could even give them the film to watch at home but again, if it is requested.

To carpet bomb the whole lot with all details regardless pf what you feel is acceptable, is too obtuse an approach at this age. Overriding any parents insticts on a sensitive non academic matter at such a young age is unforgivable.

And since healthy eating has been mentioned I feel the same about that too. The message is coming over (certainly in dd's school loud and clear). A little too loud imo.

rhubarb i read your op and have to say i agree with you
i understand what you were saying and the niggly feelings you were getting
yes i too would of got them as well
i actuslly got a niggly feeling like wow this isnt quite right as i was reading your post

And the views of those who have said it helped them with issues about masturbation or abuse? Are these totally irrelevant?

Parents do not have control over what happens at school. It's not always terribly comfortable, I agree. But it is how it is. If you want control then either remove your child from the class (as is your right) or HE (as is also your right).

Why get so incredibly bothered about "you have a clitoris and it feels nice"? It's true! I cannot see why this should be an upsetting thing to learn.

Thanks for your post Nooka.

I genuinely feel getting this info young alongside my peers would have helped me as a child, and my brothers (well info relevant to their genitals obviously!).

I remeber my older brother trying to talk to me about masturbation when I was about 15 because he was pretty sure no one would ever have talked to me about it (he was quite right) and that I wuld probably have felt guilty about it ike him (he was right). We both felt horribly guilty and ashamed! And had done for years.

Look, would you have been able to stop your abusers if you had been given sex ed at school? Surely the way abusers keep their victims quiet is through fear? And if you had been told about masturbation at the age of 5, would you have had the understanding to realise what they were talking about and to seek help if you were being abused?

Can I just ask, for those who did fiddle (I don't apologise for using that word) and felt guilty, did you feel guilty because of parental influences or it just felt that way anyway? Just curious.

These clips we were shown DID NOT discuss personal safety, we were told the teachers would be discussing that. Well I bloody hope they do! How irresponsible would it be to tell primary kids that their penises and clitorises can feel nice if you touch them, without telling them about the issues surrounding what if other people touch them or them touching other children?

This is NOT about food, or history or any other bloody lesson. Sex is generally viewed as quite private. We don't have sex in front of our kids, we don't discuss our sex lives in front of our kids. Sex is not the open and lovely natural thing some posters are making it out to be. It's a special, private thing and so with children it needs to be handled sensitively.

Tsar is right, parents should be given the option to take literature home and discuss it with their children. But we are not being given that option.

And for the poster who asked about whole class teaching - well in primary school there are around 30 children in one class and they are sorted by age. In the classroom itself you do have groups, such as top groups, middle groups and bottom groups which refer to ability (I'm sure some would disagree with that method but that's how it is atm). TAs are there to ensure that the bottom groups are given help and support and they are often given a slightly different task to the rest of the class, one that is easier to understand.

You would never have the situation where Years 1,2 and 3 are put together and all given the same lesson. It simply wouldn't work. So why do it with sex education?

You know what the really sad thing is though? I was in Aldi today and the woman at the till recognised me from the meeting, she said that she too had felt very uncomfortable with the whole thing but had been afraid to say so because the majority seemed for it. She was afraid of being labelled a prude or old-fashioned. Fancy being too scared to voice your concern as a parent? Mind you, judging by some of the posts on here, can you really blame her?

I heartily agree, Rhubarb. You are my reasonable voice (as opposed to my mad one on here!).

At the school some parents were discussing their unease about the 'sex videos' to be shown to Year 5. Immediately one woman started to be quite aggressive and said we were obviously Daily Mail readers. When someone tried to make a point, she just started chanting "Daily Mail, Daily Mail, Daily Mail".

Several mothers afterwards were quite upset, including all of the Indian mothers of ds's classmates, who felt very uncomfortable about it but didn't like to raise their heads above the parapet. (Guess who got landed with that job!) As you've said before, Rhubarb, this seems to be an area where it is considered fair game to ridicule and sneer at parental concerns.

And on the sexual abuse issue, I am rather worried about that. Paedophiles claim that young children are sexual beings and can be willing participants, and that it's only current society that frowns on such activity. If depraved people latch on to the fact that all 4 to 5 year olds are being told, AT SCHOOL no less, that touching "feels nice" with no caveats at all, then such a policy would well and truly backfire.

I think that there is the air of WANTING acrimony on this thread though.

No one is sneering. People are pointing out that some posters are sexualising in their heads parts of the body. And therefore deciding that girls cannot knwo abotu them because they are "rude".

Sexualising in their heads parts of the body? Hmmph. You do not seem to know how babies are made.

I dont think that knowing the word for a clitoris is about "sex" any more than breastfeeders woulf argue that revealing a boob to feed is "about sex" - that is your conclusion.

You know what i mean.

Now that's not on. If you read my OP you'll see how nervous I was at even posting it, unsure of the reception I'd get.

Others disagreed but it was all polite and thoughtful and we respected each others opinions.

Fairymum has apologised, which was nice of her, but someone else suggested that the rest of us were prudes and old fashioned.

As I said in my OP. The arguments for telling the kids about this seem to make sense, but the gut feeling I have inside tells me that it's not quite right.

It could be that I don't like the decision being taken out of my hands. It could be that I don't like this being discussed in school instead of in a home setting where we, the parents, can appropriate the discussion to their ages and level of understanding. It could be that some of the language used reminds me of my criminal law essays on paedophilia.

Something doesn't feel right and I assert my right as a parent to go with my gut instincts, because sometimes, as a parent, that's all you have left.

why is there a supposition that being told that touching a clitoris can sometimes feel nice will lead to those that don't doing so?

and why, if that were to happen, would it be a bad thing?

those would be my two questions.

They've been asked sophable, and my answer was that, that simply isn't the issue here. The discussion is not about whether children touch themselves or not, at what age or whether that's right or not.

The OP is about my gut instincts as a parent. As I just detailed in my last post.

Some children do, some don't. Whatever.

But adults sticking their oar in and producing videos about it... like Rhubarb says it feels uncomfortable.

but why aren't they relevant. it seems relevant to you that your daughter doesn't masturbate yet. that seems like why you are uncomfortable with her hearing this.

i'm making an assumption that the implication of this is that you feel that perhaps her hearing about it might lead her to do it. i think it is a fair enough one.

don't remotely feel like giving you a hard time about this rhubarb btw. just trying to get to what is behind the 'gut feeling' which would be a useful thing right?

S'ok sophable. No, the issue is not about my dd so please don't mention her. I don't like my dd being discussed as an example.

My point was that some children do and some don't. But some posters were adament that we did not know our own children and they seemed, for whatever reason, to want to imply that either we were in denial or there was something wrong with us and our children. This despite us saying that the issue of masturbation really wasn't the point at all.

I think it's too much info too soon. I want to be the one telling them about sex. I want it relevant to their age group.

There are lots of things we don't tell children - my dd doesn't know the names of all her organs yet, perhaps I should tell her that, after all they are part of her body too! I don't see why the schools are insistent on ramming this info down their throats.

and to get behind my 'gut feeling' would be one thing, but what about other parents 'gut feelings' too? Would their reasons be the same as my reasons?

I've been pretty honest on this thread, at the danger of having it turn against me. But this isn't just about me, this is about every single parent who doesn't want this to happen but who are afraid to speak out. I'd like to know why they are so afraid to speak out. These are our children and we do have the right to a say in their education, from Maths to sex.

But if you are okay with a dc masturbating, why do YOU feel the need for a video at school to supplement that?

You might as well have videos to support thumb-sucking, or hair-twiddling, or any other comfort activities.

And those of you who say it's not about sexualisation, then why is the video shown as "sex education"?

Rhubarb (by the way, I have done NO housework today, eeek!), I agree that is worrying that so many people seem afraid to speak up. I KNOW that most of ds's classmates' parents were unhappy, but we all capitulated. If we say anything, as evidenced by this thread, people start insinuating that we are prudish and outmoded.

Actually fircone it's Sex and Relationships.

Sophable, I'm not against sex education, I'm all for it so long as it's in partnership with the parents. I know you think I have a huge issue with sex since most of our angry debates have been about this issue, but I do think it's a natural and lovely thing and I have been very open with my kids about sex and their bodies etc. I don't want them to feel that sex is dirty or to feel ashamed of their bodies. But I still think that this video covers things that are not really relevant for very young children.

As fircone has said, their fiddling is more of a comfort thing and I don't want a video to make a big deal of that. They don't masturbate, because masturbate is what adults do whilst thinking of sexual things in order to gain sexual desire - this is not what children do. Fine, when they are more aware of sexual feelings then tell them about it. But I do have a problem with them telling 5yos about it.

Ok, perhaps that is my issue, along with another handful of parents who feel the same way. But does that mean we should put up and shut up because we are not in the majority? Or we should have our own sexual upbringings analysed? Or that we should be mocked? What may be right for you as a parent is not necessarily right for me.

Just seen this, and I have to agree with Rhubarb- I'm not altogether comfortable with the whole sex-ed at age 5 thing. To me it is a very personal subject, and trying to blanket teach it to a class of small children at varying stages of maturity I can't see being very productive. There is plenty of time to pick up those children whose parents have neglected to tell them anything later on in their school life, once I have had time to teach mine myself, in my own terms and language, and when and where it seems appropriate.

I don't think I'm a prude. My dd is 4 and regularly touches herself. we have talked about it, discussed the fact that it feels nice, but that you do it in private. I don't see how knowing the scientific terms for what she is doing will make it any nicer. I just don't see the need. AS a child I explored my body, but I didn't know the word clitoris, or feel ashamed. It was only once I realised it was associated with sexuality that I became mortified about it. I'm not sure sex-ed would not have made me feel MORE embarrassed, rather than less.

I also wonder where the morality comes in- yes, great, the kids all now know the names and that touching their clitoris/ penis feels nice, but is it ok for them to touch each others? let someone else touch theirs? After all, it does feel nice. Does the video put these things into an appropriate context?

I agree with other posters- I am a great believer in old enough to ask= old enough to know. And I don't really want some stranger, however well-meaning, imparting information to my kids that they may not be ready for or need. There has been more and more and more sex-ed in schools in recent times (when I was a kid, it was a few lessons in biology when I was 14) and yet the teen pregnancy rate has gone up and up, as have the numbers of cases of STDs. Does it really work? Is there really any advantage in bringing a childs attention (and potentially confusing/ upsetting them) to things they hadn't thought about? I can't see it, tbh