Should we skip a family holiday because my nephew hurts my children?

[KidPlantMum]

Hello, I'd like your thoughts please. My nephew (9) likes to play with my children (similar age) but often ends up hurting them. That has happened a few years now but hes getting bigger and the hurt is dangerous now. The most severe incidents have been attempted drowning in the pool on holiday. My children don't want to be alone with him any more and of course I honour that and want to protect them so I supervise all playtime. But sometimes the nephew is sneaky with his behaviour and I see the hurt just afterwards. He is aware that I watch and sometimes says 'come over here where your mum can't see us.'

His parents do not address the behaviour. They behave as if my account of what happened or my children's account isn't true/important and there are no consequences or sitting down with him to discuss his behaviour. They simply remove him and find something else to do, but that hasn't been effective. Other members of the family say he's always looking forward to seeing my kids, but I won't have them as his guinea pigs for playdates.

We have a family holiday coming up again and my children don't want to go. I want to keep them away and keep them safe so do not want to attend but my husband disagrees because he doesn't want to let down family.

Your advice please. Is there anything I can do to make family time safe? l can't think of what else to do but supervise but that has not been good enough. If we don't go on the holiday, how do I explain that to family?

Thank you

If the children are telling you they don’t want to go, you have to listen. Read between the lines. If they think there’s something unpleasant about being around this kid then you have to listen to them. Stand your ground. Stand up for them. They’ve been brave to say it out loud that they don’t like playing with him. Sing it from the rooftops if you have to. The kid is nasty and you won’t put your precious children through that. It might make the other parents sit up and actually help their rotten child.

Agree that you should be honest with the parents about why you're not going.

They're invested in the kids spending time together so if you don't tell them why yours don't want to go they'll start with the guilt tripping about how upset the nephew is that he won't see his cousins and likely get other family members to join in pressuring you to go.

I'd also be telling grandparents the truth so Dsis doesn't get to control the narrative.

It sounds like they're all invested in Dnephew not being the problem so be ready for pushback but fuck it - what are you supposed to do? Tell your kids they're wrong to be afraid of someone who is routinely horrible/hurtsthem and tell them they have to suck it up?

That would be yet more poor parenting in the family!

I am genuinely amazed at how many people just won’t tell their kids no, or tell them not to do something. It’s bizarre!

They just shrug and say “oh that’s kids”! Insane

Don't go and tell them why.

This.

We won’t be joining you this year. The kids don’t want to spend time with their cousin at the moment after his previous actions and I don’t want to spend the limited amount of leave I have not being able to relax because I have to provide around the clock supervision and be alert to …’s every move. Hopefully in the future, …‘s behaviour is safer, especially as he’s only going to get bigger and stronger, and we can get back to spending time together as a family.

If there's a diagnosis/ on a pathway
Or even if there isnt
Children can get through some quite extreme behaviours but There really ought to be a better understanding communicated between the adults of what his emotional needs and needs for supervision are. Kids develop at such a rate and do go through stages so maybe he will mature in time but there absolutely needs to be active preventative supervision and management of that behaviour from parents. Your children need to be safe.
So your DH needs to establish that kind of dialogue with them. And whether or not you choose to go it seems like they can't just sit back and view from afar. Someone needs to be close by him.

Do the children have any kind of relationship? Do they enjoy each other at any level?

I would not go.

Can I ask is the nephew your side or your husbands?
I wouldn't go and I'd be telling people why I wasn't going. Your nephew is 9 so should know right from wrong and he is hurting your children. Your priority is keeping your kids safe not protecting adults feelings.
Do your kids ever hurt him back?

I think most MNers are way too quick to go NC or LTB, but in this situation I'd not go on holiday with them, and would explain why. It is absolutely not ok for him to be hurting them, potentially seriously, and for his parents to brush it off. Their reaction is what makes me think 'don't go', because if they were trying to prevent it, watching him like a hawk and imposing consequences then I'd still go, but be extra cautious. Clearly they are unwilling to accept their son is dangerous, so are choosing to ignore it.

We have good friends who have a son that displayed some tricky behaviours around other kids - the difference was that they were aware, and dealing with it, so we continued to see them (whilst being totally helicopters for a few years). Now their son is loads better, he's developed so much in the last couple of years and is genuinely a delight to be around. I'm glad we stuck it out, because they're good friends.

If our friends hadn't tackled it, though, we'd have almost certainly phased them out, because it wouldn't have been good for DS to experience someone hurting him without consequences.

OP - You absolutely know that you shouldn't go!

Stick to your guns (and instincts) DO NOT put your children in danger. Decline the holiday before it gets booked and reassure your children that they won't be going. Their feelings and safety are paramount here.

Also extend this to any social family meet ups such as birthdays, Christmas etc.

And if family challenges you, or try to shame you be honest with your reasons.

I'd just tell the truth. The kids are too afraid to see [nephew] and you support them. If they properly address his behaviour and deal with the worrying traits he is showing, you will consider joining them on future trips. Until then you are all out.

If (when) it all blows up just keep repeating that his behaviour is extremely troubling and no one is dealing with it. You have a duty to keep your kids safe and to respect their wishes when reasonable, and you are keeping them safe by keeping them away from nephew. It is your decision as a parent, end of story. Just don't rise to the bait and argue about it. If DH isn't onside ask him how he'd feel if nephew succeeded in seriously hurting one of your kids- even if it is a fairly likelihood why would you take that risk?

Your husband is seriously prioritising not upsetting his family instead of protecting his young children? Wow

OF course you don't go. And you tell him why. And you tell him this is a hill you'll die on ... and so will your marriage if he doesn't put the well being of his children above all else.

The kid sounds like a psychopath.

A diagnosis is irrelevant if he's hurting your kids.

Your priority is to safeguard your own kids, not use them to virtue signal how inclusive you are to the wider family.

I had to pass on family holidays for similar reasons. We tried twice but my nephew was just completely out of control and my DS was constantly crying due to bring pushed, punched and having his toys snatched and broken. DB tried to manage him but SIL was a big "gentle parenting" fan and felt the DC should just work it out between them. So that was the end of that. I explained in a way that I hope wasn't too blamey. I think I said that I personally found the constant conflict hard work and would rather just holiday without anyone else for my own sanity.

Does your DH: (a) agree that his nephew is hurting your DC, but wants to go anyway and thinks it can be managed through supervision, or (b) think you and your kids are overreacting to whatever has happened and it’s just been a bit of rough horseplay with no harm intended or likely to occur?

You have to back up and protect your children in this, what is your husbands view?

Yes. @KidPlantMum
OP's dh needs to prioritize his wife and children. Letting "his family down" should be a sentiment for his wife and kids. He is placing his loyalty on the wrong people. He should be honouring, respecting and protecting his wife and kids. Not only should he not go on this wider family holiday, he needs to clearly state why and not skip over details or make a lame excuse.

We're not going because Daniel terrorizes and abuses our children. John and Sara refuse to acknowledge it or address it. We won't put our children in a position to be or feel unsafe even if that means protecting them from other family.

Im amazed you have to ask. He. Hurts. Your. Children.

Nuff said

This. I’d protect my children. Nothing else would matter.

Don't go!
I keep saying the same thing over and over again - a few years back there was a post on here, a woman wrote that her evil little brother used to hurt her and his kindergarten mates very badly and her parents did exactly the same as your relatives - they did nothing, allowed him to continue, she suffered until the parents sent them both to a non-English-speaking grandmother abroad, for summer holidays, where he attacked this grandmother, doing exactly the same - kicking her tibia very hard. The old woman knew nothing of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and beat the little miscreant so hard with some kitchen wooden implement, that he was immediately cured of his cruelty and never hit anyone ever again.

Some people are born cruel and violence like that needs to be nipped in the bud, the earlier, the better - with swift justice delivered immediately. Unfortunately, some people only understand the language of force and I hope your nephew will get his lesson sooner, rather than later, because if the lesson is delayed, it could be truly awful for him.

Your DH’s nephew sounds like he actively enjoys harming other children (yours) and is therefore a little psychopath in the making. Absolutely no way would I be going on a family holiday and having to guard my dc like a hawk at all times. It sounds incredibly stressful. Has anyone actually had it out with his (useless) parents?

Yeah…I wouldn’t be going. Sod the fallout

It's not irrelevant it tells you that the parents have gone through the process of thinking about something and seeking help.
From the OP I' d guess this hasn't happened because you'd imagine there's be more strategies.

Some parents deal with this kind of dilemma within their family between siblings. A child is violent but they can't just cut off one sibling. So there have to be practical solutions.
Some extended families would see a holiday as a joint endeavour and work together to support all the children. Maybe do more adult 1 to 1 with the challenged child. But they'd plan around that. Obviously it has to feel safe enough.
No judgement no virtue signalling All families are different.
OP can create her own pathway.
What to you is virtue signalling might be someone else's normal.