How to deal with DS5 hitting dd9?

[TrollRoad]

When DS5 is upset he gets violent and often his sister9 bears the brunt of it. He hits, kicks, bites, scratches or throws things. She usually screams or cries but she won't hit back as she doesn't want him to get hurt.

We remove him immediately and then tend to DD to check if she's ok. He's usually quite upset and scared himself after hitting anyone so I do hug him and tell him I love him and that we are there for him. He obviously feels bad but he refuses to apologise or even ask DD if she's ok. We have explained to him time and time again that hitting or any other form of violence is not ok and that we won't accept it. He gets an automatic TV ban for violence but I doubt that in that moment when he's in a rage he is actually capable of stopping himself from being violent.

DD always forgives him and often makes the first move to make up again but I am so scared that eventually this will affect their relationship or that he will grow up to be a violent person.

When he's not upset he is of course lovely and then I think he will eventually grow out of it but what if he doesn't? Besides till that happens DD has a right to be safe at all times.

They usually get on well and in spite the age gap still play nicely together (though DS has lashed out before as well. Actually every time he gets upset) but the holidays have just forced them to spend too much time with each other. Also, DH and me have no leave left so are working full time (grand parents are at home with the kids or they go to holiday clubs), which probably doesn't help.

Any advice? Does anyone have experience of this? What helped? Equally important, what didn't help?

No attention for bad behaviour - out of the room he goes and all attention on DD. The hugging and reassurance can come later, but the immediate result of his actions needs to be very clear to him. He is too young to untangle mixed messages. It has all got to be simple and crystal clear.

Basically you need to condition him .......
Hitting sister = making sure sister gets all the attention and I am booted out.
Being kind and good = all attention on me.

I have a nearly 5 year old DS and a slightly younger DD and I am WAY harsher with my punishments for DS for violent behaviour towards his sister. He will be told off by shouting so he knows I’m serious and sent to his room while we check on DD, then go up to his room where (hopefully) he is crying from the telling off to sternly explain that we don’t hit and it’s unacceptable behaviour. We will then make him go to apologise. If he refuses, he can stay in his room until he is ready to apologise. Any hugs are very brief and only after an apology is given.

No idea if this the right approach but OTT arguments between the kids is fortunately rare so we don’t have to do this often. Reading your OP I would say you are being far too soft on your DS and you need to stop pandering to him when he’s upset after hitting his sister.

Does he care about the TV though? When one of mine went through a hitting phase, I made sure he knew every time he hit me he would lose something he loved. I would put favourite toy etc in the car as an instant consequence. Dp didn't give consequences. Guess who got hit more and for longer?

Yesterday DH told him he can't enter the same room as DD till he apologises to DD so he was loitering about the door of the living room crying and being really upset. I think I probably went to him after half an hour or so and I did tell him that we are very upset with him but that of course we love him and are there for him etc.

The thing that threw me a bit was that he absolutely refused to apologise to DD or to even ask her if she's ok. He said he can't do it. I think he finally ventured a half assed apology after over an hour and DD of course immediately forgave and hugged him and then they were the best of friends for the rest of the evening. He was very happy but I was hoping to see more genuine remorse.

We've told DD that she can defend herself and push him away if necessary but she won't do it and I also worry that he might really get hurt when eventually she does. I also think it's not her responsibility to defend herself. It's our job to keep her safe and to teach him to not be violent.

Yes the TV thing works as a consequence with everything else. In this case it doesn't work though because I think he's just too overcome by emotion to think rationally at that moment.

So after he thumps / bites / scratches his sister you hug him and tell him you're there for him? That must make your daughter feel just great. And his punishment is merely 'no TV' despite failing to apologise?

I think you need to take a firmer hand. Think of the beatings he can inflict when he's 10 or 15? She won't be so quick to forgive if he really injures her.

I feel very sorry for the DD here. Her brother beats her up and gets rewarded.

How often does this happen? What are the triggers?

You need to start working on prevention instead of focusing on punishment. If this isn’t a once in a blue moon occurrence, then your son needs better supervision. Most 5 year olds can play in a room without a parent, but yours may not be ready.

So that's what we kind of do. Remove him from the situation (so yesterday I picked him up and removed him from the room) then check on DD, pay her exclusive attention while ignoring him. Then both DH and me told him off and then I have no idea how much time passed but maybe half an hour after which I spoke to him and held him because He was obviously scared and very upset. Then we played with DD and told him he can't join till he apologises.

I don't want him to apologise just so can get out of consequences or because he has to. I want him to genuinely feel sorry and to learn not to lash out at her or others. He is never violent or even badly behaved in school. Only at home.

You need to teach him to apologise. Try making a silly game and getting every one of the family to apologise for something daft.
‘I am so sorry, I am wearing a red skirt today. It might hurt your eyes’
I am sorry I havnt brushed my hair and you might be embarrassed if I go shopping like this’
I need to apologise cos I dropped the spoon in the kitchen and it banged on the tiles and made a loud noise’

He needs to learn the world doesn’t end if he says sorry.

He can build up to being sorry he hit someone.

Yeah, this is your problem. He’s been a naughty little sod and you are caving after only half an hour! Put him in his room, don’t let him loiter, don’t feel sorry for him and his crying. He’s safe and not “scared”. Doesn’t matter if it takes 3 hours for an apology. You have to stand your ground.

Yes absolutely. Prevention. That's what I want to do but I'm not sure how to prevent it. I know being tired is a trigger so we try to avoid him getting over tired. The grandparents have been letting him play games on his phone and I think that might also be a trigger so we've told them strongly he isn't allowed to touch any phones anymore.

It doesn't happen often. At least not during term time. Maybe once every few months. But the summer holidays have been bad. Maybe once a week? It's not always DD. He has hits me, DH and his grand parents. None great but with DD of course it's even worse because we can't fail at keeping her safe.

He should be upset after hurting his sister. It’s normal and quite healthy that he feels bad after doing something bad. He doesn’t need hugs and reassurance to make him feel better?! DD, ie the victim, needs the hugs and the attention. And he needs to learn to acknowledge when he’s done something wrong and apologise because that’s just how the world works. I wouldn’t get hung up in the sincerity of it. He should be removed. DD should get the attention. He’s allowed back once he calms down and apologised to her. In the meantime he gets no attention. And police their joint playtime more so you can try to pre empt as much as you can- look for any particular triggers.

He is actually really good at apologising for other things. We all apologise freely in the family. But it's different when he has actually done something serious. Then he can't apologise. Maybe he's scared of admitting fault or maybe he's scared of being rejected though he's never had an apology be rejected.

I agree that he isn't scared in this situation. Its not obvious that he feels bad if he is refusing to apologise. Five isn't a toddler

Yes, that's what dh said. Maybe I do cave too quickly. I did want him to feel really bad and guilty and was quite annoyed that he kind of got away with not properly apologising or showing remorse.

I also worry though about him internalising that he's bad and violent and beyond loving and that making things worse.

I think I probably went to him after half an hour or so and I did tell him that we are very upset with him but that of course we love him and are there for him etc.

How ridiculous.
Is he the precious baby by any chance?

I also worry though about him internalising that he's bad and violent and beyond loving and that making things worse.
Well right now he is bad and violent. As for beyond loving, he needs to smarten up his behaviour or he won’t be liked

You need to research and actively teach him how to deal with his anger. Is there any pattern to his behaviour?

Well the research I've done supports my approach..first stop him from hitting.. attention on the victim.. reiterate no hitting rule and then be gentle and help him work through his feelings.

How do I teach him to deal with his anger? We've showed him deep breathing techniques to calm himself down. We've told him he can let out his emotions on inanimate objects like hitting a pillow. Etc. but yeah he doesn't.

There is a pattern in the sense he's more likely to get violent when he's tired and then it usually happens when he doesn't get something he wants.

Simon the good moments constantly praise the good behaviour and then just blank and ignore and make of fuss of DD when he’s violent.

You don’t want him to think that after he’s been violent - especially towards a woman - that people are going to rally around him so he doesn’t feel bad.

He needs to learn and also KNOW he will be shunned for violence .

What is a precious baby? Of course they are both precious to us. They are our children.

If you mean like the golden or preferred child no he isn't. In fact I think sometimes he lashes out at his sister because he knows this will definitely get a reaction from us.

Stop fussing over him when he does it!!

Have a look at zones of regulation.

Lots of stuff online about recognising feelings, how your body feels with certain emotions, recognising things like your breathing etc.

Get him to identify what helps etc.

Bir don’t be soft on the before whilst he’s learning this because otherwise there’s no incentive for him to try and get it right.

I know. I have told him as much. I told him other people will not ever accept violence towards them and they will shun him or hit back.

It's not that I don't want him to feel bad. I want him to feel bad. I want him to feel very bad when is violent. But I don't want him to feel that he's alone or hopeless or beyond redemption.

Sorry I cannot get past the fact that you console and cuddle him BEFORE he apologises. That’s an absolutely atrocious message to be giving him