First ever baby to be expelled from nursery?!

[SaraG3018]

Hi all. I've got an 18mo DD who is just, a firecracker. She's always called a happy baby by everyone, and she is, but she's also absolutely savage and insane. Everything is a delight and a game and a reason to get overexcited.

Sometimes she gets handsy, other times she throws toys or pulls hair. With us, we don't mind so much but nursery have now put her on a behaviour plan! I never heard of such a thing.

When she started to be like this around 12-14mo we used to firmly tell her not to, remove her from the situation or toy or person, but not over labour the point so as not to give her attention over it. She loves the attention. We also got given a sticker chart and a set of laminated cards with red stop signs or happy or sad faces etc to help her identify her feelings or to know when to stop.

I know all toddlers can get this way but my older DD who's now 6 was never this bad. She's now on a behaviour plan where the nursery tries to track any triggers or particular people but they're not spotting any pattern. They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling. She knows how to say sorry and does it well, so understands the concepts of no or kind hands. But the thing is, for her, it's never a tantrum or upset or malicious behaviour it's the opposite- she's just happy and overexcited and misplaces the energy. She doesn't realise when she could hurt someone, she just has this thrilled look in her eye like it's all play.

At this point I genuinely feel like my little happy girl might be the first ever baby to get expelled from a nursery! I half feel indignant because, why are the nursery staff ringing me to check if I've been using the sticker chart properly when I'm at work... she's literally a 1 year old baby who can't speak yet. She's just about starting to pick up single words now. On the other hand, I know she's more demanding than my first and handsy and I'm starting to feel like a bad mum. But I literally don't know what else I can do? If I tell her off even more she just wiggles away or gets happier from the attention and eye contact. She's kind of feral but we love it and think it's just her baby nature and will grow out of it. But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated! At this daily rate I'm sure they're going to tell us they can't handle her and we need to leave soon!

My son was expelled at 2.6 years for bebavioural issues. He is now 4 and has an asd diagnosis and ehcp application pending. The nursery should at least make reasonable adjustments to try and meet his needs. They should also be doing some sort of behavioural management so the potentisl triggers are documented to see if there are any correlations as to why to child presents as they do. From reading your post they should be able to put more help in place to support the child within the provision. Have they mentioned portage ? Either suggest there is more they can do re reasonable adjusments or consider changing provision. My son is thriving in his new setting, he has had ups and downs but the main thing is how they manage the presentations and support in place.

What are their suggestions?
If it’s things like ‘distract with toy’, ‘move area’ etc then it’s fine. It’s telling staff how to intervene and manage.

At 18 months old she doesn’t sound that different to many other little ones.

Sticker chart - no - unless she has a thing about stickers, some children do even when little but the concept will be over her head.

We sometimes have to deal with throwing, pushing and hitting/scratching from ‘lively’ toddlers in the baby room and it’s very hard to manage when the child just thinks it’s funny. The nursery probably need you to stop finding it funny at home too and make her realise this behaviour has the potential to hurt others.

An adult can defend themselves but a 9 month old baby in the same setting will find this terrifying if the handsy behaviour is directed at them.

Not caring about hurting others/own agenda type behaviour is something a nursery will monitor in case there is more behind it, although a bit young to do more than observe at this age.

“She’s kind of feral but we love it”……you might but I doubt anyone else does!! It sounds like you’ve given up trying to discipline her which is only going to backfire at some stage!

Move her to a forest school nursery.

I suspect the OP’s version of “firecracker” is what the nursery would call “oppositional defiance disorder”.

It’s not cute when she is excited to cause other children pain. It’s not cute when she’s destructive.

What about the safety of other children?

My child has severe autism. There is no way I let him exhibit behaviours that harm or annoy others.

It’s not up to the nursery to make accommodations.

I would query if they suspect some additional needs for your daughter? If they do they will be collecting evidence to assist her with obtaining a diagnosis and support. Behaviour logs and plans are part of that process.

1 year and 18 months are quite different stages...

I used to get peeved at baby groups when a child around 18/20 months would hit and shove and the parents would sit there with the "she's just a baby attitude" yes she is, but at 18 months and she should be learning right from wrong, and not having parents who find it lovely, or it's just her feral ways!

Consistency is key. It sounds like you tried something, didn't think it worked so stopped? Try again... Keep trying!

Me too. A ridiculous approach to parenting, what’s the teenager going to be doing!

Wow! Go to sleep with a problem and wake up with 100 bits of advice. Love mumsnet. Thanks all.

I think perhaps my descriptive words weren't helpful in clarifying what she's doing or what we're tolerating so let me fix that.

Things she does at home which make her a little savage in our eyes: likes to dig into dirt, eat sand or anything on the floor if we don't keep an eye, yells with pure excitement at you when playing, demands picking up quite loudly very often and pushes me away from sink etc to pick her up. Very friendly to other people and kids, often strangers. Things she does at nursery but not at home - throws food if she's full up, has pushed another child twice in the almost year she's been there, so not often, has thrown a toy at or scratched a member of staff by now 3 times in that whole period. So that's not great but this is by no means a frequent or weekly thing. Mostly at nursery what we get complaints about is what they describe as handsy but not hurting or pushing anyone, or they would specify that. In fact when there are small new babies or a baby is upset we hear that she can be caring and play nicely with them to cheer them up. We got a 20 minute talk yesterday and the day before about whether we are using the sticker chart or the 'stop go' cards because she pulled a child's vest, and the day before had another 20 minute chat at drop off about how she was throwing sand on the floor and not using listening ears.

Things we do at home include using the cards, praising good behaviour, telling her firmly to stop or that we don't throw, we don't hit etc. Removing her from the toy or person when she is starting to get agitated. Telling her right from wrong but not going on about it to the point that she gets the wrong level of attention from it. I read all the parenting blogs and books.

Where I think maybe I'm not helping- I do often just pick her up and carry her about whenever she demands it but I'm going to start to decrease the giving- in more and more now, which might help. For those of you who say, hey a 1.5yo needs picking up, I know- I'm actually having postnatal hernia surgery in a few weeks and won't be able to pick her up for 6 weeks. So I'm gently going to need to prepare her for that, whether I want to or not.

Hope that clarifies it! I think the point about whether it's the right nursery is a good one and we're going to really think about that over the next few weeks. But in the meanwhile any tactics others have found useful would be great.

I agree with others, there has to be consistency. If you are allowing behaviour that you know wouldn't be tolerated at nursery or even infant school, at home (yes children can bite, be physical with other children etc at 4/5), then your daughter is being given mixed messages.

You need to be firm with her at home. Remove her from the situation. Tell her No. Children only learn by consistent re-enforced reminders. Yes, it can be tough, some children are willful and more difficult, but you have to persevere.

Personally, I don't know if an 18 month old, would grasp the concept of a sticker chart. That's something you would use for a child that's older in my opinion.

Work with your daughter's nursery or find her a different setting. However, I think the issue may be more to do with your daughter being confused by the mixed messages she's receiving.

18 months old is very young to be at nursery, this is why preschool nurseries start at age 3.
Private nurseries mostly have young inexperienced staff, many unqualified "apprentices" who have no idea what to do with a boisterous toddler, let alone a room full of them. Add in a "feral handsy" child and it becomes stressful for all involved.
Staff are expected to shadow the child with difficult behaviour which leaves ratios not being met, other children not getting as much attention. Then if a child is hit/bitten the nursery staff member responsible for looking after them is hauled to the manager's office, has to fill in paperwork, explain to the angry parent of the hurt child what has happened....all while looking after a lot of other toddlers!

Perhaps a nanny who is used to handling "feral handsy" behaviour would be best until your child reaches nursery age?

One more thing, I think a lot of this is attention demanding. When I'm with her we can play or read books for hours and she'll be perfectly behaved and happy, very still and content with books. If I try to do other bits around the house, it's clinging to my leg and crying. She's also very smart, developing normally so I'm not sure SN comes into it.

So very nice and smart as long as she gets her way? Right…

So children with additional needs can't be smart or enjoy books?

I think what normally happens is the setting strongly implies they don’t want them until the parent feels uncomfortable and takes them out.

You beat me to it.

Sounds like a bright, high energy kid who is not getting the right kind of stimulation or enough attention either at home or at nursery.

Do you have access to an "outdoor" play nursery, like a Steiner school or similar? I think if she could run around outside and dig in the mud (which it sounds like she does do at home) she might be better suited to that kind of environment.

I'm honestly astonished that they are trying sticker charts with an 18 month old given its only really aged 3 when you can fully understand "rules".

Wrong environment is my personal opinion.

It doesn’t sound like they are trying to expel her but make you aware of how she’s acting at nursery, and also it sounds dangerous for other children. You might not mind her biting others or pulling hair but if I found out someone was repeatedly pulling my LO hair; who, is autistic and doesn’t know how to react in situations and would just allow it, it’s not fair and could hurt someone.

in addition, it sounds like she could potentially have other needs which is why they are picking it up on, early, to flag it to you. To me that seems the most evident; but as she’s so little it could be nothing.

She made be better in a smaller less noisy setting or childminder? We removed our second DD from nursery after 4weeks. My eldest had been there for 3yrs no issues. Youngest hated it. At that age all behaviour is communication it sounds like she’s not coping with the constant sensory overwhelm from that environment. We found an amazing childminder who actually looked after her for 8years with wrap around school care. She thrived at the CM who was outside everyday doing physical things in the morning and quiet things in the pm it really suited our youngest.. I’d change the nursery.

She sounds like a perfectly normal 18 month old! I have a 17 month old who sounds very similar, very loud, very demanding of attention at times - occasional throwing of toys, grabbing and a bit of pushing too (his older brother) - it’s very typical! They can’t yet say ‘hey, I was play with that’ or ‘I want that’ yet!!

Her nursery sounds insane tbh, 20 minute lecture at pick up, flash cards and a sticker chart?! Definitely have think about other settings.

She's also very smart, developing normally so I'm not sure SN comes into it.

I thought you said her language was delayed, that she only has one or two words? Have you had a referral for this yet? I'd get on a waiting list now.

She's kind of feral but we love it This probably explains a lot of the problems that nursery are having

But I agree might be worth changing the setting. Perhaps nursery just isn't the right place for her

You also mentioned she pulled hair.

If it's all as you describe above, I can't imagine why you'd be worried she'd be 'expelled' or why they have her on a behaviour plan. Two instances of pushing wouldn't merit that kind of intervention.