First ever baby to be expelled from nursery?!

[SaraG3018]

Hi all. I've got an 18mo DD who is just, a firecracker. She's always called a happy baby by everyone, and she is, but she's also absolutely savage and insane. Everything is a delight and a game and a reason to get overexcited.

Sometimes she gets handsy, other times she throws toys or pulls hair. With us, we don't mind so much but nursery have now put her on a behaviour plan! I never heard of such a thing.

When she started to be like this around 12-14mo we used to firmly tell her not to, remove her from the situation or toy or person, but not over labour the point so as not to give her attention over it. She loves the attention. We also got given a sticker chart and a set of laminated cards with red stop signs or happy or sad faces etc to help her identify her feelings or to know when to stop.

I know all toddlers can get this way but my older DD who's now 6 was never this bad. She's now on a behaviour plan where the nursery tries to track any triggers or particular people but they're not spotting any pattern. They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling. She knows how to say sorry and does it well, so understands the concepts of no or kind hands. But the thing is, for her, it's never a tantrum or upset or malicious behaviour it's the opposite- she's just happy and overexcited and misplaces the energy. She doesn't realise when she could hurt someone, she just has this thrilled look in her eye like it's all play.

At this point I genuinely feel like my little happy girl might be the first ever baby to get expelled from a nursery! I half feel indignant because, why are the nursery staff ringing me to check if I've been using the sticker chart properly when I'm at work... she's literally a 1 year old baby who can't speak yet. She's just about starting to pick up single words now. On the other hand, I know she's more demanding than my first and handsy and I'm starting to feel like a bad mum. But I literally don't know what else I can do? If I tell her off even more she just wiggles away or gets happier from the attention and eye contact. She's kind of feral but we love it and think it's just her baby nature and will grow out of it. But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated! At this daily rate I'm sure they're going to tell us they can't handle her and we need to leave soon!

The child’s own Mum described her as “savage” and “feral”.
I think we can assume the behaviour at nursery exceeds a vest being pulled?

She’s done 5 things in a year and they’re making a fuss? You’re either massively minimising or they are a terrible nursery and I’d move her. It’s probably a mix of the two but since they’re suggesting sticker charts for an 18m old they do sound very inept.
Dd is a bit like this, she’s just boisterous, I’d hate anyone to squash that out of her tbh. Shes kind and caring and funny and loves to play, she’s not scared of adults, or shamed into behaving with peer pressure, I love that for her. Obviously if she was violent it would be different but a child just being loud and active is fine imo.
Re the 5 incidents, my dd is hit and pushed loads by other kids who are actually trying to be mean, I’d rather she be pushed by someone who was just playing overzealously.
I also wonder how much more of your dds behaviour would be considered acceptable if she was a boy.

Private nurseries have to operate within the law. They can't just ask a child to leave - there are limited reasons for saying no. For example, my daughter works in a nursery and sometimes they have prospective parents who have unrealistic demands which the nursery can't accommodate - think overly precious. But they can't usually turn a child away because he/she is challenging as that is entering sen territory.

My daughter has worked with hugely challenging children needing 1 to 1 support and the nursery has to do it. In England this usually involves applying for an EHC plan but that takes ages and they have to cope in the meantime.

You're full of it.

Phone calls every day and long chats are not because of isolated incidents or a star chart that was one suggestion, which will not be talked about every day on the phone. You need to get a grip, this child is destructive, distracting, harming others and taking attention away from them. It's not right and it's not fair. You don't give 2 shits about safeguarding, just sucking up to parents who can't parent.

You've joined me at the end of the conversation.

This member had originally disagreed with me when I said that the behaviour described was developmentally normal. It may be unwanted behaviour- but that does not mean it isn't also developmentally normal.

To recap: I personally feel that if nursery practitioners who are phoning home daily to ask if a star chart (a developmentally inappropriate tool for this age) is being used at home; and are talking to parents for 20 minutes at pick up over a vest being pulled: then this needs to be addressed and a better understanding of child development is needed/training given.

It's unfair (no matter how bad a child's behaviour is, to be phoning a parent daily about their child's unwanted behaviour) - the parent is not in denial that the child shows unwanted behaviour and has come on here explaining everything they are doing at home (all wholly developmentally appropriate).

An 18 month old does not have the language development to express their feelings - they need to be taught how to do this. The parents have in my eyes implemented more developmentally appropriate strategies than nursery have.

My judgement is that the nursery environment and the way they are handling the behaviour is not focused on supporting the child's development or the parent in an effective manner.

In order to make this judgement, I've read all the responses from the OP and draw upon my own professional training and experience of working with this age group.

She sounds exactly like my DD at 18 months and throwing things, pushing, shouting are all completely normal behaviours at that age. When we did tell her off for things that weren't ok she just laughed. My DD is now 3 and has grown out of all of that, she’s still very active but is also very kind and caring.
What’s not normal is the nursery response. The only time nursery has every phoned me has been when my DD has been ill. If it’s just pushing etc. (even 2 incidents of biting when she was teething) it was just casually mentioned at pick up because at this age it’s an expected behaviour and nothing to call out.

Just enjoy your DD and maybe consider moving nursery as they shouldn't be calling you up for the behaviour you've described.

You don’t need to look far for the problem. You find it endearing and cute and yet you are surprised everyone else doesn’t!

I don’t have kids but have a 2.5 year old nephew. He’s lively and spirited (not in a bad way) but his nursery told his parents when he was pushing kids when he was younger and it’s now stopped. His mum told him not to push his toddler friend when he came for a play date and it worked. He also has a 2 year old cousin and a baby cousin he’s seen a bit and he’s great with them, very caring. If I call him “baby” he’ll retort back “I’m not a baby!”.

"They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling". Is the nursery using sticker cards as a last resort because they've tried everything else? Are they calling almost daily because she continues to misbehave and other mothers have raised concerns about her behaviour?

Lack of understanding of authority or equalising behaviour like hitting out at caregivers is definitely a developmental red flag a health visitor would note.

Being handsy and hitting and lacking impulse control beyond the level of her peers, again a red flag.

What is also a red flag is a child who can't play alone or they get stressed and dysregulated, they use the nervous system of their preferred caregiver to help them regulate their own nervous system so can't happily play without a calm grown up nearby.

She sounds very like my son at that age, he's autistic, and also very academically bright, towards the top of his class, very high measured iq and is now 8. So I'd be asking your health visitor and nursery for a referral to child development. You're in denial, so was I but it gets easier once you start getting checked out.

This post reads as inconsistent, which honestly leads me to think your boundaries are inconsistent which is creating the issue (or at the very least not helping)

That's a fear response.Doesn't mean she understood what she was doing 🙄 Cause and effect in the moment yes, but doesn't mean she would be able to stop herself again on another occasion or have any control over her behaviours.
Had similar when my DD2 was 18mths and kept escaping the car seat buckle.She had no concept of danger or it being 'bad' behaviour, she was just being adventurous and had no conscience or understanding.

Sounds like she might need a more energetic setting like forest school

My daughter went through a very similar thing (and she did get kicked out of nursery!)

She got put on a behaviour plan that I had to sign each day, this was after she had pushed another child, then closed the window doors on the playhouse on another child’s fingers
other examples of what was on the plan

• threw her dummy when it was sleep time and wanted it back
• spit on the floor when she got told off (she couldn’t spit, I was trying to teach her to spit her toothpaste out at home and she definitely hadn’t learnt yet
• ran around when it was tidy up time and got toys back out

I was eventually told that they couldn’t manage her and kicked her out. She was around 18 months/2 when this was going on. Her language wasn’t well developed and I never saw the defiant behaviour they described at home. She was a handful with lots of energy but not defiant. Nursery told me she had adhd and I needed to go to the doctors.

When she got kicked out I put her with a local childminder and told them all about her behaviour. At the end of the first week they said they had kept a close eye on her and hadn’t seen what the nursery described (nursery was outstanding with ofsted if it makes a difference).

My daughter stayed with the childminder for 2 years without any issue and she loved it. They gave her lots of attention and she no longer played up. She went to school, I asked them about adhd and they said absolutely not.

My daughter is now 20, no behaviour problems through school (literally not one phone call) and now works in a nursery full time.

Looking back I think they found my daughter too energetic to manage, she didn’t fit in and they thought it was easier to get rid. I don’t think they were experienced in keeping her entertained or following through with consequences when she had done something and I think she learnt she could do what she wanted.

My only regret now is that I waited till they kicked her out rather than finding somewhere that catered better to her needs.

Honestly this felt like the most difficult thing in the world when it happened but please keep your chin up.

I think it’s a really tricky age. At that age (maybe a couple months younger) my dd was stripping the babies in the nursery if she wasn’t being closely supervised, she was super interested in all the other children and did get a little aggressive at times. As soon as she started talking all was well.

You people trying to give a psychiatric diagnosis to an 18 month year old over the internet need to get moderated

Lovely story and you did your best and sounds like you’ve done a great job

I agree, I think 9 - 22 months ish is absolutely the hardest part of being a parent

https://facebook.com/groups/LighterPDA/

Your doing a wonderful job. Have a look at this and feel not alone x