First ever baby to be expelled from nursery?!

[SaraG3018]

Hi all. I've got an 18mo DD who is just, a firecracker. She's always called a happy baby by everyone, and she is, but she's also absolutely savage and insane. Everything is a delight and a game and a reason to get overexcited.

Sometimes she gets handsy, other times she throws toys or pulls hair. With us, we don't mind so much but nursery have now put her on a behaviour plan! I never heard of such a thing.

When she started to be like this around 12-14mo we used to firmly tell her not to, remove her from the situation or toy or person, but not over labour the point so as not to give her attention over it. She loves the attention. We also got given a sticker chart and a set of laminated cards with red stop signs or happy or sad faces etc to help her identify her feelings or to know when to stop.

I know all toddlers can get this way but my older DD who's now 6 was never this bad. She's now on a behaviour plan where the nursery tries to track any triggers or particular people but they're not spotting any pattern. They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling. She knows how to say sorry and does it well, so understands the concepts of no or kind hands. But the thing is, for her, it's never a tantrum or upset or malicious behaviour it's the opposite- she's just happy and overexcited and misplaces the energy. She doesn't realise when she could hurt someone, she just has this thrilled look in her eye like it's all play.

At this point I genuinely feel like my little happy girl might be the first ever baby to get expelled from a nursery! I half feel indignant because, why are the nursery staff ringing me to check if I've been using the sticker chart properly when I'm at work... she's literally a 1 year old baby who can't speak yet. She's just about starting to pick up single words now. On the other hand, I know she's more demanding than my first and handsy and I'm starting to feel like a bad mum. But I literally don't know what else I can do? If I tell her off even more she just wiggles away or gets happier from the attention and eye contact. She's kind of feral but we love it and think it's just her baby nature and will grow out of it. But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated! At this daily rate I'm sure they're going to tell us they can't handle her and we need to leave soon!

If she was terrorising your toddler you might feel different, she seems like she is a bit of a social grenade and the fact that her parents love it doesn't bode that well for the future. She may be happily & enthusiastically hurting other kids and flinging toys around, but you can bet her victims and their parents aren't best pleases. Calling every day shows the severity of the situation.

Also they are safeguarding other children which is a priority. Great you think that it is all sh!t and giggles OP 🙄

Agree with you, I don’t believe in phases, if an issue is resolved it is because someone dealt with it and it can also be another child having enough of her shit.

We had a biting boy at nursery whose parents had been trying “their best” for a year without any results. One day I got to the nursery just after DS had been bitten yet another time, he had a blooded circle of teeth in his arm and was howling in pain, the nursery tried to reassure me that both them and their parents were working on it (for more than a year, I must say 🤬) so nobody was sorting it and I couldn’t sort it myself either so I calmed my little boy and once in the car I told him that the next time Tommy bit him to bite him back hard and not to let go until he started crying. 2 days later Tommy bit him again… and that was the last time Tommy bit anyone. Surprisingly, they became best friends after that, I guess the only thing Tommy needed to learn is how much it hurts and that other children can defend themselves.

PS DS didn’t bit anyone else before or after the episode. I just asked him to defend himself as nothing was working.

I imagine the nursery's issue is keeping the other children safe, rather than seriously trying to change your child's behavior (because of her age). The only way to effectively do this with a child who behaves like yours is to constantly physically intervene.

I've known a couple of little ones who sound like your child, and the impact they have on other kids (especially the more sensitive ones) is not minor - so I wouldn't be minimizing it as you seem to be doing now.

I don't think nursery is suitable - she needs much closer and more active supervision than they can provide. Not just to keep other children safe, but for her sake too - I imagine she is at least on some level beginning to build a picture of herself as 'bad' - due to all the 'blamey' interventions happening right now (rather than just actively supporting her through a difficult phase).

So as a "firecracker...savage....feral" that you think will grow out of it......how do you think that she will grow out of it if you are fine with it at home and teach no lessons at all? Nursery, it seems, are parenting her (or trying to) far more effectively than you are.

Its rare I say this but frankly, you are being crap parents. You are failing her very badly. Do better and she will do better. It really is that simple.

The sticker chart is ridiculous for a child this young and makes me wonder if the nursery staff have any clue about child development.

However, your own description of savage, feral, handsy etc is also worrying.
She needs an instant sanction of removal, stern no, ignore ( pretend to) for a minute and then distraction.
Lavish praise for her good moments.

Have you tried redirecting her? So if she's throwing her toys, firmly tell her toys are not for throwing (and take the toys off her), then tell her if she wants to throw, she can throw this ball into this bucket. If she's pulling hair, firmly tell her hair is not for pulling, then tell her if she wants to pull she can pull this toy along (there are so many lovely pull along toys available) and maybe set up a little course for her to follow with it. It will take a bit of effort on your part to ensure there are always appropriate alternatives available, but she can't carry on this way.
It sounds like maybe you have tried telling her no but your tone and body language have contradicted your words (since you think it's all so adorable) so your daughter is getting mixed messages. By redirecting her, you might avoid those mixed messages and she will be able to learn how to behave appropriately.

I don’t think sticker charts or words work at this age. I had an incident last week with a c. a 16 month old kept coming up to my 14 month old grabbing at her and then tried to hit her in the face. Dad bowls over and just goes no… gentle hands. As if he’s commenting on the colour of the walls.

It’s like what the fuck. Pick them up and move them! At the least use a sharper tone. Look lively you moron!

I think this parenting atm where everyone says everything so calmly in a whisper is just not doing anyone any justice. Our children need to know and learn from the full spectrum of human experience. And if that includes anger or raised voices or a sharper aggressive tone then that’s important too.

I don’t want my children to be getting physically hurt and stand there meekly going ‘gentle please’. No you shout STOP! That hurts get off!

If they are doing something dangerous I am going to shout. NO! <instruction>

So I don’t see if I am willing to shout for the safety of my own child; which I am sure most adults would do. Then why are they not shouting for the safety of others. Seriously. Think about that.

'She's kind of feral but we love it'

Great. Clearly the nursery staff don't. They have a duty of care to keep your feral child and the other kids in their care safe. So you either work with them. Or you move to another Nursery. What else can you do?

I've worked in nurseries, and babies do get fired. Not regularly, but one every few years, because they are too violent with other children. The teachers/carers are responsible for at least 3 other children. They can't be riding herd on your child the entire day.

I notice very few of the responses have any meaningful advice about how to change the behaviour. Why? Because there's very little that's effective with babies this age that the OP isn't already doing.

So instead everyone's going to tie themselves in knots picking over her language or getting upset about that fact that she has kept her sense of humour and (shock! horror!) still adores her daughter for who she is while trying to tackle the undesirable behaviour.

To any new posters gearing up to stick the boot in - what would you do differently?

(Signed - parent of a toddler monster who is now the most upstanding adult you could dream of raising.)

You may not mind being hit by your "feral" child, and think she's cute, but others definitely will mind. Yes, it's a developmental stage but your job as a parent is to guide her through that and make sure no harm comes to her or anybody else. She's too young for a sticker chart, but as others have said, the behaviour needs tackling through redirection and not rewarding it with attention, laughing at her antics or giving her any sense that the behaviour is wanted or welcome. You seem to think it's funny, but a parent whose child is hurt by your "firecracker" definitely won't. Or she'll try it on a bigger kid and get hurt.

You may well need a nursery that can deal with her behaviour differently, but they also are not there to fix it for you. Do your damn job and parent your child and the nursery won't have to call you at work.

Agree.

Nobody should have to put up with the behaviour you are smiling at. Other children are being hurt. Your toddler is probably creating havoc in the room she's in.

You need to rein this in completely and firmly. Or offer to provide a 1:1 aide to stay with her in the nursery and attend to her. You are asking a lot of the nursery if you think they should be spending the time and energy I guarantee they are spending on your child and mopping up in her wake.

You need to ask them to stop calling you at work. That much is unreasonable. But you need to start reading up on toddler behaviour and start getting serious about turning this around. When were you thinking of starting this instead of smiling benignly at her "feral" traits? Next thing you know, she'll be 21 months, then two, then two and a half - you need to work hard on this, and teaching her to say sorry isn't going to cut it.

If after serious work for the next few months there's no.improvement, you need to look into occupational therapy to work on impulse control and sensory seeking behaviour.

Seriously?!!! You’re seriously crap at your job then!! These are the early warning signs for children with additional needs! VERY common with kids who end up
Diagnosed with autism and or adhd!

op not speaking by 18 months I would say is a major red flag and I’d be asking why she’s not speaking and also asking gp for a referral to SALT or going privately ideally. The delayed speech thing will be a MAJOR part of the reason she’s more out there behavior wise too as they get frustrated etc

With us we don't mind so much...

The OP isn't really trying very hard here. The toddler is getting mixed messages.

Agree these are issues for an OT and/ or SLT to examine

They're insane, she's 18 months old. Sticker chart and kind hands ffs. Remove her from the situation and a firm no is all it needs at the moment. If it's still happening at 3 then maybe there's a problem, but for now it's on them to watch her a bit better.

In that same paragraph she then went on to talk about the things they did to deter the behaviour. Not being super upset about it doesn't = not trying.

You're doing exactly what I posted about - picking her words apart looking for the 'wrong' thing you can have a pop at!

I can find plenty more where that came from. The Op is essentially laughing this off.

The reason you are also indulging her feral behavior and thinking it’s cute is also because you aren’t parenting her all day every day. You get away from her to
the peace and quiet of work 😂 so only have a couple of hours a day to have to manage her! WHEN the nursery tell you they think that their nursery isn’t a good fit for your daughter and tell you unfortunately they ask you move her to another one - within 24 hours! - because they CAN and DO do
this!! They get around the ofstead rules by saying your child needs a different nursery with a smaller class size or a 1 to 1 ratio or whatever - because thwy know if they don’t they will be losing the parents who actually parent as they won’t be putting up with their child having chunks of hair pulled out or teeth marks etc for much longer!! THEN when you can’t find a nursery or childminder to take her because parents and nurseries and childminders all talk! Then when you have lost your job because you have no option and have to parent her at home 24/7 THEN you will not find it “cute” or endearing etc

I went and re-read the OP based on your comment (I haven’t commented on this post).

The implication is that the OP did try for a while to stop the behaviour but if you look, she refers to that in the past tense “we used to…”.

She also seems outraged that nursery aren’t happy about it. Most parents would be mortified that their child has hurt another - even if it’s only occasional. OP seems very relaxed about the fact that sometimes other children get hurt - because it’s not all the time.

I think the fact that she’s referring to her as a baby and not a toddler is quite telling too.

As for what she can do, definitely a check with the health visitor to see if she’s meeting her milestones. The fact her speech sounds delayed might suggest that a referral to SALT could help.

And as OP seems to suggest that they let things go “because they don’t mind” perhaps more consistent rules around what’s ok.

I think all of us have probably thought our child was cute at one point or another when others wouldn’t have shared the view! 😂

Boisterous toddlers aren’t the issue - parents who don’t take hurting other children seriously are.

We really can't say without observing what's going on. I'm not sure what OP is meant to do about it in a nursery setting anyway. She's not there. If she's allowing it at home, she can take action to redirect and start reinforcing the kind of behaviour people would rather have. We don't really know what she is doing there though, even though she has said she finds it adorable. There have been times I've had to put on a serious face and correct my children, even though internally, I thought what they were doing was hilarious (not hurting type stuff).

She finished her post with this:

But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated!

You might not like her tone but she clearly wants to do her best and fix the problem.

Ooft some of these responses. I had a firecracker of a first child. She was meek and lovely until around age 2, and then she was a menace until we changed her school at 3. The fact it changed overnight with the new school made me think it may have been the school and other children (she was bitten and hit by other children there between 18 months and 2). Regardless, she’s older now, extremely strong willed and amazing in every way. To those saying model what you want at home, we talked about it endlessly, and read the colour monster and hands are not for hitting more times than I care to remember. She grew out of it, or the change in environment pushed her to. Id change schools, they’re going to call you and eventually send him home until you do.

I think if she is really feral and hitting or pulling hair there should be a zero tolerance to that and there should be the same repercussions at home as there is at nursery. I am not sure that a sticker chart for an 18 month old will work though. Does a naughty step work for her? The consequences need to be immediate so you and the nursery need to work together and remove her the minute she starts getting handsy which is not cute. If you are laughing at her that may be why she isn’t picking up the behaviour is unwelcome.