First ever baby to be expelled from nursery?!

[SaraG3018]

Hi all. I've got an 18mo DD who is just, a firecracker. She's always called a happy baby by everyone, and she is, but she's also absolutely savage and insane. Everything is a delight and a game and a reason to get overexcited.

Sometimes she gets handsy, other times she throws toys or pulls hair. With us, we don't mind so much but nursery have now put her on a behaviour plan! I never heard of such a thing.

When she started to be like this around 12-14mo we used to firmly tell her not to, remove her from the situation or toy or person, but not over labour the point so as not to give her attention over it. She loves the attention. We also got given a sticker chart and a set of laminated cards with red stop signs or happy or sad faces etc to help her identify her feelings or to know when to stop.

I know all toddlers can get this way but my older DD who's now 6 was never this bad. She's now on a behaviour plan where the nursery tries to track any triggers or particular people but they're not spotting any pattern. They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling. She knows how to say sorry and does it well, so understands the concepts of no or kind hands. But the thing is, for her, it's never a tantrum or upset or malicious behaviour it's the opposite- she's just happy and overexcited and misplaces the energy. She doesn't realise when she could hurt someone, she just has this thrilled look in her eye like it's all play.

At this point I genuinely feel like my little happy girl might be the first ever baby to get expelled from a nursery! I half feel indignant because, why are the nursery staff ringing me to check if I've been using the sticker chart properly when I'm at work... she's literally a 1 year old baby who can't speak yet. She's just about starting to pick up single words now. On the other hand, I know she's more demanding than my first and handsy and I'm starting to feel like a bad mum. But I literally don't know what else I can do? If I tell her off even more she just wiggles away or gets happier from the attention and eye contact. She's kind of feral but we love it and think it's just her baby nature and will grow out of it. But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated! At this daily rate I'm sure they're going to tell us they can't handle her and we need to leave soon!

We joke our youngest is feral, and she is, to a point. But I also don’t excuse her behaviour by saying she’s just a baby and it’s cute. If she’s pulling/pushing/grabbing/hitting(?) other children then you need to work with nursery to stop it and not allow it at home either otherwise it’s mixed messages. It needs a firm ‘no’ and taking her out of the situation, it isn’t cute. Ours loves a hit and it’s really hard but she can’t go around just hitting people when she’s cross or excited, she’s 3 now and it’s been a lot of hard work but she needs boundaries. Throwing toys etc isn’t ok and could hurt another child, regardless of your wishy washy rules at home.

She’s not a ‘one year old baby’ she’s an 18month old, there’s a big difference in a baby who’s just one and an 18 month old - I’m guessing she’s in a room with other smaller children?

I’ve been the parent who’s child keeps getting hurt too, my eldest is a sensitive soul and there’s been incidents where the same child has pulled her hair, bitten her, pushed her etc and his parents ALWAYS excused the behaviour, his mum was nice, but wasn’t interested in changing her meek approach, it did him no favours at all. He’s at school now and hopefully doing better.

parent your child.

Because she’s 18months old… she doesn’t understand words let alone behaviour yet

Nothing to do with reading your mind, however I did read all your posts. Maybe use your words more wisely if you don't intend for people to react to them.

You quickly switched track and started minimising things. Incidents so few and far between do not attact everyday calls and 20 minute 'chats'.

Rather than being so easy breezy, maybe take some accountability.

My daughter is so bad at home i wondered if you were talking about her 😭 shes 4 though and goes to school in August and is on the diagnosis pathway. Good as gold in nursery though, that pesky masking 😅

I have already posted further up but have since seen this and 2 other replies.

I wanted to add some reassurances:

You've mentioned she:
Digs in dirt
Eats sand
Yells in pure excitement 💕

These are all sensory behaviours. Normal for this age.

You've said she:
Throws toys
Throws sand.

This shows that she is struggling to communicate or is perhaps also exploring a schema. Schematic behaviour is how babies and toddlers learn. It's an impulse. It’s NORMAL behaviour

You also said:
She likes to be picked up and pushes if she doesn't get picked up.

This is behaviour due to communication. NORMAL.

You've also said that you:
Reinforce good behaviour
Distract or remove her or others from the situation
Explain the correct way.
Use the cards nursery provided you with

You're doing everything right OP. A 20 minute talk after nursery about how a child pulled on someone's vest is ridiculous. Nursery should be exploring the throwing.

"We mustn't throw sand. It can hurt our friends."

"We are allowed to throw balls. They are fun"

Set up activities that help her explore the trajectory schema. Allow her to be a toddler.

Keep going OP, you sound an awesome Mum.

I think she sounds like a perfectly normal toddler and I’m horrified at them giving you a sticker chart as it shows they know absolutely nothing about stages of child development. I’ve worked with young children for decades.

My DGS is same age and at a fab nursery where they do the most amazing variety of activities like gardening and very stimulating. I know it can be hard but could you find a forest school type nursery that is full of exciting variety as she maybe bright but bored? Why do we try to put children in such tight little boxes in our education/nurserysystems - you and she sound great and you’ve made it clear that hurting someone else is rare and she is being taught how to behave well. Hope you can find way forward OP.

I'm surprised nursery are so bothered and are ringing you, I feel like this is quite common with this age group and I remember dd (who was a quiet toddler) coming home with bites and bruises from over excited "friends". When you're the mum on the receiving end, it definitely isn't cute. I wouldn't worry too much though, my son had a friend he called "head kicker" and he has grown into a lovely gentle boy, so long as they learn empathy at the appropriate age!

I guess the bit where you say "it doesn't bother us too much" and describe her behaviour as "cute" is maybe a slight worry because has she seen that you're a bit nonchalant? Equally, you obviously have started the process of managing it and are doing the normal things, so it's not as if she's doing that at home with no boundaries. I think it might be worth seeing if there's a better nursery for her energy - maybe bigger gardens, more outside time? I think perhaps because you're older one is 6, at home you might let her get away with it - imagine if you had a smaller one at home, at risk of being hurt, and maybe act with more urgency/concern. I'm sure she will grow out of it, but it's a good age to learn boundaries. Don't bother too much with sorry, they don't have empathy at that age and she won't understand it, she'll just copy. Instead focus on boundaries, removing everything she throws, removing her from any situation she is violent and you need to just repeat, repeat, repeat. Don't give her any opportunity to behave that way, because that age group can't think through their actions or contain any impulses - so saying no, she does the behaviour and enjoys it, then she parrots a sorry - is not going to have any impact.

Agreed! 'Kind hands' is an ineffective and irritating phrase at any age tbh. As is 'listening ears'.

At 18 months I really wouldn't be getting into discussions about unwanted behaviour beyond 'No' and removing her from the situation.

OP it sounds like that nursery isn't a great fit for your daughter, I'd be looking to see what other options you have locally. Agree with pp who suggested forest/outdoor nursery if you have one nearby.

Sticker chart at 18 months age is not appropriate and does not say good things about their understanding of child development. Never undertsood the love for them as had two children for who sticker charts made everything worse but endless people pushed the idea at us.

She sounds like an exuberant 18 month old who needs clear firm consistant boundaries .

I'd start looking at alternative settings or experienced child minder.

I would ask the nursey if they are trying to convey SEN or development concerns because their reaction to 18 months behavior seems very odd.

Pushing and throwing are developmentally normal behaviours for this age. They may be unwanted behaviour but they are also normal.

The nursery should be explaining to parents how they are helping OPs daughter. Some examples would be distraction, diversion, explaining what she CAN do, demonstrating good behaviour.

An 18 month old is not going to change their behaviour with incentives such as a sticker chart; but will with praise and appropriate encouragement and discouragement in the correct manner.

Everything I've read tells me the parents are doing far more than nursery is. It's a shame that others can't see this and instead like to criticise instead of offer help.

Haven’t RTFT but had to write just to say she sounds a bit like my DS1 who is now 11 and has been diagnosed by the NHS with ADHD. I was a good mum to him but was always confused about why he was so full on! He was and still is the happiest person I know but he is generally quite intense. He takes lions mane tablets every day and they really help. Still waiting to be given a prescription for medical drugs to hep manage it when he needs it. It’s not a reflection of you. My DS teachers were nice but a bit clueless.

Agree. Surprised by some responses tbh. It’s clearly not just the nursery at fault here. At 18 months she should be speaking a few words and her receptive language should be far enough that she understands it when she is re directed / told to stop.

I would look for another nursery but I would also take a good hard look at whether you really think she will grow out of this behaviour if you’re not doing much to stop it. 18 month old toddlers understand a lot more than you think.

18 months old toddlers DO understand words!!

I think this all sounds fairly normal for an 18 month old. I mean, they're all feral: none of them are ready to have a tea party with the queen. And I think it's good for them to dig in the dirt!

If she's really only pushed another child twice in a year then that doesn't sound very serious at all. It sounds more like she's demanding a lot of attention from the staff all the time?

Do you think maybe she's not thriving in the setting and might get on better with a childminder? There are amazing nurseries and many of my friends' kids have absolutely thrived in them but I don't think they're for everyone.

As basically everyone has said, a sticker chart is ridiculous at that age. Why is she with smaller babies? Is she perhaps jealous of the younger babies?

Agree! Can't stand the phrase "gentle hands" because kids hands shouldn't be on other kids at all!

So normal that OP is getting calls about her everyday, so normal she is described as a savage and feral, has 20 minute handovers and her mum is posting about her on Mumsnet? I never had any calls like this from nursery (and I don't class myself as anywhere close to supermum) and neither did my friends, although one or two calls would have been expected. My daughter also didn't come home bruised, scratched or complaining that someone had pulled her hair or thrown toys/sand at her.

This is a child who is very much behaving out of the ordinary for an 18mth year old. The suggestions you have made are very obvious & it sounds like elements have been undertaken at both school and nursery. The biggest help & what I have suggested is that OP takes some damn responsibility, stop being so irritatingly blithe and seek help before a) child ends up with no friends and no playdates and/or b) some poor kid loses an eye!

Also, I don't mean this rudely but your title "first ever baby to be expelled by nursery" says a lot. Of course you adore your own child and admire their spirit. But they're not the only child at the nursery.

Everyone wants to believe their child is special, a first ever, especially the classic "precious first born". But actually children do get asked to leave childcare settings if it's not working. My son's childminder would let children go if they didn't think they were thriving in the setting. So no, she wouldn't be the first. Maybe she needs more of a forest school kind of nursery where they ram around outside all day in all weathers?

Try and step back and see the situation from the professionals' perspective, maybe ask for some written feedback from the nursery and take it to the health visitor.

Thank you and I'm sorry for the poor use of punctuation there. I don't mean to imply at all that SEN children aren't smart the SEN part of my sentence was related to her developing typically. I have worked in healthcare for over a decade and know that many neurodiverse children and adults are absolutely brilliant in the way neurotypical people can't be. What i poorly referred to here is the fact that she isn't displaying things that the HV, her teachers or usual SEN parenting experts describe as atypical. But she is also very young so who knows, I'll certainly keep an eye and keep it in mind.

Maybe not the setting for her? Some little ones love nurseries, some don't. The wretched cost of living crisis, our wretched lives when both parents have to work like mad and one of them can't stay with a little one at home at least in their baby years.

She sounds like a normal 18 month old. Is the nursery new or inexperienced? Sounds like they're expecting a lot from a child so young. Putting sand on the floor and throwing toys is expected!

Also do they have rooms grouped by large age ranges, is she in a 0-2 room rather than a 18month-2 year room? Might be more of an issue to launch toys across the room if there's tiny babies nearby!

Sounds like they just need to supervise her better. I've worked in nurseries and even the most challenging children have been fine as long as they're closely supervised.

You love that your toddler is ‘savage’ - if she’s getting positive attention from you when she’s being rough with others then she will carry on doing it! You’re creating mixed messages.

Absolutely this. Totally normal behaviour for this age! Sticker chart use is ridiculous - she's still a baby and barely a toddler at 18 months.

She could be super smart. She could be a feral adhd waiting in the wings for diagnosis at 6. Time will tell

At least they are acknowledging and trying to work on triggers

Read the first two chapters of Sociopath by Patric Gagne.
One persons handsy is another person‘s violent.