First ever baby to be expelled from nursery?!

[SaraG3018]

Hi all. I've got an 18mo DD who is just, a firecracker. She's always called a happy baby by everyone, and she is, but she's also absolutely savage and insane. Everything is a delight and a game and a reason to get overexcited.

Sometimes she gets handsy, other times she throws toys or pulls hair. With us, we don't mind so much but nursery have now put her on a behaviour plan! I never heard of such a thing.

When she started to be like this around 12-14mo we used to firmly tell her not to, remove her from the situation or toy or person, but not over labour the point so as not to give her attention over it. She loves the attention. We also got given a sticker chart and a set of laminated cards with red stop signs or happy or sad faces etc to help her identify her feelings or to know when to stop.

I know all toddlers can get this way but my older DD who's now 6 was never this bad. She's now on a behaviour plan where the nursery tries to track any triggers or particular people but they're not spotting any pattern. They ring us almost daily now with something she's done, and mostly she's not hurting other kids though there have been a couple of occasions of pushing or pulling. She knows how to say sorry and does it well, so understands the concepts of no or kind hands. But the thing is, for her, it's never a tantrum or upset or malicious behaviour it's the opposite- she's just happy and overexcited and misplaces the energy. She doesn't realise when she could hurt someone, she just has this thrilled look in her eye like it's all play.

At this point I genuinely feel like my little happy girl might be the first ever baby to get expelled from a nursery! I half feel indignant because, why are the nursery staff ringing me to check if I've been using the sticker chart properly when I'm at work... she's literally a 1 year old baby who can't speak yet. She's just about starting to pick up single words now. On the other hand, I know she's more demanding than my first and handsy and I'm starting to feel like a bad mum. But I literally don't know what else I can do? If I tell her off even more she just wiggles away or gets happier from the attention and eye contact. She's kind of feral but we love it and think it's just her baby nature and will grow out of it. But is there something I'm missing? Could we be trying something else? Any advice much appreciated! At this daily rate I'm sure they're going to tell us they can't handle her and we need to leave soon!

Id look for a setting with lots of outdoor time and activity.

But if she is pulling hair of other kids, they need to think of those kids too.

I think they are treating her as if she is a much older child.
Is she tall by any chance?
Youre talking about a lively little one with a love of life.
Which is fabulous.
I guess the answer has to be "wrong nursery" because at her young age she hasnt even got into tantrums yet.

Toddler room leader here. So nursery aren't doing a 'behaviour plan' They're trying to find the triggers! Google ABC behaviour chart and you'll get the idea.

I'm guessing the issue is that you don't think the behaviour is a problem with you. You MUST be consistent that's non negotiable. Any behaviour you think is ok, cute or funny now, ask yourself are you still happy for a 4, 7, 10, 13 year old to be displaying the same behaviour.

Get off Mumsnet and and go to nursery and ask to see the behaviour plan, have a meeting, ask nursery how they handle each behaviour and then replicate that at home - or work with nursery to build an approach you all stick to!

Don't ask strangers when you have literally got experts already doing exactly what they should be doing to first get to the bottom of unwanted behaviour and secondly keep everyone safe.

OP, health professional here with expertise in child development. You are describing a very normal 18 month old and a completely abnormal response from the nursery. No 18 year is able to regulate in accordance with sticker charts, she is FAR too young for the expectations they are placing on her. Over exuberant behaviour, needing attention, limited focus, pushing, tugging all within normal range of behaviours we see in this age group. Honestly, it sounds as though the environment is over stimulating for her and like many other children her age, she would thrive better in a childminder model of care, where she is less stimulated. 'A 'no' & quick redirect and distraction is generally what works best at this age but expecting a deeper comprehension from a child this age is simply bats! If it were my kid, I'd be moving creche.

A behaviour chart for a 1 year old is ridiculous. I have background in child development. There is no way a 1 year old is understanding or has the impulse control to benefit from a sticker chart. I would move her to a different nursery on this basis alone as they clearly don’t have understanding of what to expect from a toddler.

You mentioned delayed speech development - can you ask nursery staff how she communicates with them if she wants something ? If the nursery are ringing so frequently you need to speak to them to ask them honestly what you call do together to help her

"Handsy.....feral."
And are you just going to let her grow up "feral" or are you going to parent her?

My brother got banned from playgroup for biting - this would have been in the early 80s. He's a very boring stable adult with a very good job and a lovely family now.

His youngest daughter (much to my mum's amusement) is exactly like him though, totally feral! I assume she'll grow up to be fine also.

Nursery sounds batshit! If she was 3 yes it would be good to be consistent with them but she is a toddler and they should be saying ‘no’ and removing her to a different activity. Might she be better with a child minder?

Are you a drama lover in RL @SaraG3018 or just on mumsnet? Because it looks like your daughter has not been expelled and no one at the nursery has hinted as such.

I think you wouldn’t mind her being expelled. Then you could “boast” to anyone who’d listen about how your “firecracker” of a daughter was expelled from nursery.

Some kids are a bit “a lot”, especially at this age. however I think you need to heed their warnings or huge possibility this will spill into school, secondary school etc. You say you love she is feral / you don’t mind her getting handsy with you. Thing is she won’t understand boundaries at this age from person to person, at 18 months you need to be more simple in what is right and wrong.

It can be a fine line as you want them resilient and mentally strong, but also kind and considerate and know boundaries of right and wrong. They could well have leadership qualities but without guidelines it will be lost.

I do know children at nurseries can be put on a watch to see what triggers them and actually this is proactive, what you allow at home will be what she does outside the home. Time to be a parent and teach correct manners and not wanting what you think is cute as will be a lot worse in the future.

Yes. It is all very developmentally normal behaviour. What isn't developmentally appropriate is an 18 month old being expected to change their behaviour with a star chart.

Issuing a star chart only puts the expectations on the child to modify their behaviour; it is not helping them understand what is socially acceptable by example which is how children of this age would typically learn social behaviour.

OP said she uses redirection and explanations and she helps the child communicate: which is exactly what she needs to be doing. It seems to me that nursery are being less effective than parents. A good nursery would not be ringing up everyday- they'd realise this is normal behaviour for a child and be asking for a meeting with the parents to support, and then follow up in a few weeks time. They would be concentrating on redirection, modelling and communication. Not star charts.

I am speaking as someone who has extensive experience in working with this age group and have followed these practices myself.

the SEN part of my sentence was related to her developing typically

Except she isn't.

If you think it's normal, then you are not normal. If it was normal then every parent would be getting calls every day. Unless you worked in a toddler YOI where you ring said parents every day then you are talking out of your arse. Can't bear Mumsnetters who argue shit just for the sake of one upmanship.

I've very rarely heard of this kind of behaviour from a toddler (usually in a psychological thriller) and lots of posters agree, you may well be in the wrong job.

My cat’s sister was called a bit feral by her owner. But that’s a cat not a child.

"Things she does at nursery but not at home - throws food if she's full up, has pushed another child twice in the almost year she's been there, so not often, has thrown a toy at or scratched a member of staff by now 3 times in that whole period" Scratching the staff and throwing toys at them. Yikes! Is this considered normal behaviour for an 18 month old?

It isn't your DD's fault whatsoever, it is the nursery, they shouldn't be calling you at work unless it is something very serious, they should be able to deal with this, it's not anything they won't have come across before surely, if they haven't dealt with similar before, it's time for a more experienced nursery

For nursery to be putting in place the steps they have then they must have concerns about your DDs behaviour which would indicate it is not the norm. You need to be consistent with the nursery. Although you might not mind her 'handsy' and 'feral' behaviour, others clearly do. If it was the other way round and your DD was the one having her hair pulled would you still feel that the behaviour was 'cute'? You also mention that you have tried numerous things - faces, stickers, saying no firmly etc but you need to be consistent with this alongside the nursery. If you have only been trialling things since she was 12- 14 month then you can't have tried anything for any period of time - things don't work immediately. You mentioned your daughter can say sorry nicely and no and understands but then say nursery are phoning you as she is only a bay and can't talk so does she understand or not? It is one thing to be able to say sorry but another to understand why. I think until you stop finding your DDs behaviour 'cute and funny' you will continue to have the same issues and it doesn't matter how hard nursery try if you are effectively rewarding the behaviour. She is only little but will only start to learn once there are no mixed messages.

You could try magnesium from Mighty Kids. A deficiency could cause the overly hyperactive behaviour, increase in tantrums etc. Suggest to give it a try!
I would look on instagram for behavioural experts for suggestions on how to deal with certain toddler behaviours also. @ abanaturally seems good.

But she is atypical. Most children her age arent on a behaviour plan.

I agree you seem to love the mischievous nature which might seem cute will become a big problem. If youre laughing along she'll take it as positive enforcement Pulling hair and throwing toys shouldnt be ok at home she'll end up with no one wanting to play if dhe carries on. Keep praising good behavior really go to town on the positives and when shes playing up ive read that telling kids what you WANT them to DO is better than telling them not to do something. Id like you play nicely with your toys as opposed to dont throw your toys. Youre guiding them on what to do

Why on earth are you allowing her to pull hair and get handsy at home? Obviously then you’re teaching her that these behaviours are okay and so she’s going to think it’s okay to do it at nursery. You need to step up and teach her right from wrong , how else is she going to know? It’s your job as a parent and right now you’re failing.

She’s a baby. Just 18 months old for heaven’s sake. I think I’d have to find a way of taking her out of this nursery I’d be afraid if them damaging her confidence and making believe she’s always naughty. Expecting a baby of this age to understand a chart is ridiculous.

If studying a child's behaviour with the sole purpose to understand them and be caring and compassionate means I'm not normal then that's absolutely fine with me. I'll celebrate it even!

Maybe, if we slow down and observe our children BEFORE trying to jump in and correct them, we'd learn from them.

The nursery are using an ABC chart but not finding a pattern and providing a star chart whilst mithering the parents (when they are at work) instead of using their tools correctly.
An ABC chart, when used correctly, WILL provide an answer: this could be that a particular time of day or routine, or the behaviour of another individual is causing the unwanted behaviour: is the child overstimulated, undersimulated, tired, fed up, bored?

In order to change the behaviour, does the environment need to reflect this? A child doesn't act out for no reason. There's always a reason. Remember that nurseries and childcare providers are obligated to ensure that their environment is a suitable place for all children in their care. The nursery's provision is to provide a star chart which is developmentally inappropriate for that age group.

The OP can explain their daughter's behaviour (even if unwanted), the causes and also what they are doing to support her at home. This is massive- and yet she's being slammed!

Our babies rely on calm, steady routines, social cues, predictability and reassurance to understand the world around them - and from what I've read the OP is doing this. Communicating and modelling wanted behaviour and discouraging and diverting unwanted behaviour.

Star charts are pointless for an 18 month old. They are relying on intrinsic motivation alone to correct a child's behavour and not realising that for the child: communication is everything. Their behaviour is communication: they need re-direction and communication tools (OP is doing this)

If the nursery better communicated their expectations to the child and equipped the child with tools such as language- then I guarantee this behaviour would change.

What is calling the parent up every 5 minutes going to do apart from make a good parent feel anxious and doubtful? The staff need to look at their training needs and re-visit child development and their environment, in my opinion. 🙂