Help- don’t know how to deal with 10 yo DD behaviour

[Diddlypop]

Hi,

I’m looking for advice about my DD behaviour and how to tackle it. Please be kind, this keeps me up at night and I’m so worried, and apologies for the length.

My DD is highly intelligent (reading age of 13 at age 6, flies through maths, can do complex Lego in a couple of hours etc) and her school thinks she is wonderful. They’ve described her as bubbly, helpful, and kind but we’re having a lot of problems at home and have been since she was 2.

She tends to fly in to uncontrollable rages, screams, throws things, attacks us (me usually) and she’s increasingly not doing anything she’s told to do. For example if she’s told to go upstairs and get ready for bed you can guarantee she’s not doing it despite promises to. I have to go up after 10-15 minutes whereby she’ll quickly scoot in to her room and start but I have to keep checking. If you tell her to tidy her room she’ll barely do any of it. I won’t go in to the long history of events but they include destroying her room because we told her we were all going on holiday, attacking me on holiday because I insisted she brush her teeth, breaking doors through slamming them, throwing a full pot of e45 cream on a carpet in a rage etc.

I told her and her younger sister to help me fold washing the other week and she was balling her fists and flinging it about. I got fed up and sent her to her room to calm down but she was screaming and throwing things for about an hour before eventually she calmed down (whereby I had her fold and put away the rest of the washing).

She occasionally is incredibly helpful but it’s rare. She can also be very loving and caring if her sister but then really mean to her as well.

She goes through fads of defiance such as refusing to brush her teeth (the toothpaste is too strong, brushing hurts etc), it’s a huge drama and then suddenly it’s not a problem anymore and she enjoys it. Currently she’s not changing her underwear daily. I caught this by chance and now I’m finding I have to check every day. She’s 10 and I can’t see this is normal, is it?

My parents think she’s attention seeking from what they’ve seen (and also a bit lazy) as this all started after her sister arrived when she was 2. Trying to get to the bottom of it I calmly observed her yesterday, didn’t get angry when she acted badly. There were 8 times she kicked off or got upset!

Not going through all of them, her sister wouldn’t let her play with her toy. This resulted in DD getting upset and asking me to make her. I said no as her it belongs to her sister and she’d only just started playing with it. She loudly cried in her room and ranted about it, but when her sister gave her the toy 10 minutes later she didn’t want it, was back to normal like nothing happened.

We were hanging pictures in her room but it was a mess so I told her we’d do it after she’d made her bed. She did a half arsed job hiding blankets under her duvet. I told her to do it properly and she flew in to a crying, ranting rage. Trying not to get annoyed we carried on with other jobs but she gets louder to try to get us to go to her (if we did she’d get even louder or prolong it from experience) and when that didn’t work she came out and did it on the landing near us. It’s hardly ever real crying and she eventually calmed down and made

At other points in the day she would sit near me looking sad but wouldn’t tell me what was wrong. Like switch had been flicked she’s suddenly back normal like nothing had happened.

She tends to mess about at bed time (it’s been worse recently) and will secretly read after being told to go to sleep. We spend our evenings going up to check because we’ve caught her reading until midnight in the past. She’s taken torches, head lamps, toys that light up, anything she can get her hands on so she can secretly read. I check her bed and drawers but she then sneaks out to find something or cracks her door to let light in. When we talk to her she’s very sorry and will “definitely go to sleep” but you can guarantee that 10 minutes later you’ll find her door open again.

We’ve tried letting her stay up an extra half an hour to read on the understanding that she then goes straight to sleep but she never does.

Tiredness could be a factor but even when she’s slept she’s like this.

Behaviour is worse in the mornings and evenings. Clothes and the feeling of clothes is usually a problem. She won’t get uniform on with someone standing over her. You’ll instead catch her reading or playing but often loud games, she’s trying to tell us she’s not doing as she’s told which again leads us to the attention seeking.

I would say I’m strict, there are always consequences and I can get cross, but I’ve also tried be patient, ignoring it, talking to her, trying to understand. I’ve run out of ideas.

When we get cross I find her reaction is odd. Her sister would look guilty and sorry or upset but DD10 gets angry even when she’s done something really bad and she knows it. The angrier we are the angrier she is. She can be quite cutting with the things she says when this going on.

We’ve considered whether this is autism (there are other small indicators such as emotions or reactions often seem staged like it’s something she’s seen and is trying out, lack of empathy, the intelligence, extreme emotions (very angry or very sad, extreme excitement) that often seem misplaced.) She went through a short stage out of the blue at 18 months of banging her head on the cot in the middle of the night when she woke up. She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities. Her cousin has autism (non verbal).

I’ve also considered whether she wants more attention from me so I’m trying to do more 1:1 with both children. Following one afternoon with her last week she kicked off again so it’s not working yet.

For people looking in she’s articulate, intelligent, great at making friends, well behaved etc, but we’re struggling at home. Any advice?

So you’ve studied my child, know her well and all the complexities of her character and know this for certain do you?

My hormonal teenager sounds similar. She behaves very well at school - and I’m not sure I like the term ‘masking’ as it’s had insufficient research.

I see it as : she actually knows the rules of society, but tries it on at home!

And I’m v pleased she DOES know the rules of society because hopefully she’ll continue to uni and get a good job. I ‘mask’ in my job all the time! If I slobbed about eating chocolate, on Mumsnet at work - I’d get sacked. But I don’t want to get the message that I can behave that way at work because it’s the ‘real me’ and I’m masking.

No not at all.

But girls tend to be ok in primary. They tend to hit problems in secondary. Prime time is transition to y7 or KS4.

We were told this by the ed pysch who wrote the report for my DD’s EHCP and the specialist ND service that supports children in my city. Dd had a psychologist she saw every week who told us this too, as well as further support from lead pyschologist.

l don’t know your dd. But l do know mine who presented similar and was diagnosed late. And all the specialists and groups I’ve seen or been in talk about these flashpoints.

To follow that thought through - we are comfortable saying that a school environment can be stressful to a child such that they no longer want to go, but we can't accept that a home environment is so stressful to a child that they resort to destructive behaviours?

No not really.

Schhol environments are fairly similar. Home environments less so, so the only measurable thing is school environments.

I agree with this. In many cases I think we are using poor quality diagnoses to label kids who are objecting to an environment that's not well designed for them. It's not that the children have any underlying pathology - they are reacting through behavior to an environment that doesn't suit them.

You don’t know her but you seem very certain of your diagnosis of her.

I actually find it quite frightening how eager some of you are to label. Everyone seems to need to belong to a group nowadays. She is what she is, whether it’s an underlying condition or behaviour, and we’re tackling that, but I’m not going to sit here and predict impending doom for her, stick a label on her and accept our fate or implement a load of unsupported parenting strategies that, knowing her, would let her take control of our family and make the situation worse for all of us.

We are looking for advice from a psychologist, we are sticking with setting boundaries and we’re looking to resolve some of the other issues, like friendships, that she’s dealing with at the moment.

I’m glad my dd had a label.

When she became to unwell to care for herself, too mute to talk, too anxious to leave her room, those ‘labels’ in her reports enabled us to claim full Pip for her.

I think people don’t get the severity of bad burnout.

My dd refused to go to school 2 1/2 years ago. She was very ill with burnout. She still hasn’t recovered fully now. It can take 5 years.

But let’s not ‘label’ our dc hey? It’s the label that helped us understand what was wrong and get support.

I’m trying to help you and warn you of what may be ahead. We had a terrible time, including self harm when we tried to get her to school. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. And my dd loved school at 10.

But you do what you want. I don’t really care one way or another. You’re just a name on the internet.

I agree with this 1000000%.

Well said @DeafLeppard

” In many cases I think we are using poor quality diagnoses to label kids who are objecting to an environment that's not well designed for them. It's not that the children have any underlying pathology - they are reacting through behavior to an environment that doesn't suit them.”

OP we aren't labelling. We're suggesting you find out if your child is neurodiverse. A lot of the behaviours you describe suggest she may be. The strategies for managing her behaviour, or supporting her, will differ depending on what the issue is. So why not find out?
A lot of us have personal and/or professional experience. You are asking for help but are rejecting every response you don't like.
It's not a case of either firm boundaries OR diagnosis. Diagnosis does not equal soft parenting.
Ironic that you call us judgemental then say what you say about the family at the school gate.
Believe it or not but I was trying to help. I have experience that I was hoping could be useful. I really hope you find a way through, because what you are going through is really, really tough.
But I'm out.

I’m out too.

l’m talking from bitter experience. Late diagnosis and the problems at secondary because no one knew she was ND.

@Monstersfromtheid I am bloody finding out!! I posted this a couple of days ago - do you really think in that time I could have had a formal diagnosis and an EHCP in place??

I have a call arranged with a psychologist who specialises in autism. I’m not rejecting the possibility that there’s an underlying condition but I am rejecting armchair diagnosis and implementing gentle parenting/ explosive child parenting techniques based on MNers diagnosis of my child who they’ve never met.

This sounds a lot like my daughter although her behaviours at home were maybe not so extreme.
As soon as she started high school at 12 she was completely overwhelmed by the change and began to school refuse. She is now awaiting formal diagnosis but the school are supporting her for a likely autism diagnosis. She also shows signs of PDA and if she doesn’t want to do something she just won’t. She still school refuses a lot but has pupil support daily.

She had managed to mask ridiculously well throughout her younger years but looking back there are so many parts of her personality that we know now to be linked to autism. Lots of sensory issues, anxieties, unreasonable behaviours etc. All her school reports were good and she was a model pupil and getting on fine at school. All the behaviours came when she got home and could finally release her stress from masking all day. It sounds to me like your daughter is like this too.
I am so glad we know what’s going on now and I feel lucky that it became apparent so quickly after starting high school as her year head said what often happens with girls is they mask through primary school and then start high school and gradually lose the ability to mask and cope over the first few years and then can present with extreme anxiety, eating disorders etc. Now is the time to seek help.

I had no idea my daughter was on the spectrum until it hit us in the face. She is the funniest, smartest, wittiest most creative person I know and I am so grateful we can support her better. I only wish I had been more clued up when she was in primary school so we could have got help earlier. I am more than happy for her to have a ‘label’ if it helps her get through life easier.

The research on burnout is really limited too. It's possibly almost exactly the same as depression, possibly not, but there is no research to be sure either way.
@Diddlypop we sought a diagnosis because the BEST treatment for the impulsive and aggressive behaviour in ADHD is medication. Second best is structure and that's why so many do better in school.
Our DS has more structure and demands at home and he's more aggressive at school.

It’s included in the Royal College Pyschatrists paper on ASD. So not that limited and formally recognised.

Also my dd was unable to read during burnout which isn’t symptomatic of depression. And despite being ‘limited’ it was mentioned by every single professional we had contact with.

It wasn’t like depression. And anti depressants didn’t work. Whereas ADHD medications changed everything.

Completely disagree. My DD who sounds v similar is absolutely going to school despite any ‘burnout’ or ‘masking’. And I will make sure that happens. Sorry - and here’s a smile back 😀

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Aren’t you the lucky one?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

This is OP’s thread though. About her DD and I’m saying mine is similar. This is how I’ve got her to succeed at school - by being firm.
Why are you jumping to diagnosis and almost promoting school refusal for ‘burnout’?

You’re very quick to judge other people given you’re struggling with your own child’s behaviour.

Because l was firm, and repeatedly sent her. She couldn’t process anything. But l still sent her. The whiteboards gave her severe migraines every day, but l still sent her. She gradually became too mute to speak to teachers, but l still sent her. She became unable to read but l still sent her. And also, she wanted to go. But couldn’t.

Then she self harmed, so l stopped sending her. I’m a teacher, I wanted her at school.

Sometimes parenting isn’t enough. You struck lucky. School refusal is common amongst SEND kids.

Yes, it is the op’s thread, but as you keep putting inflammatory stuff up it’s your thread now too.

She sounds very similar to me as a child. I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD as an adult. I wish this had been recognised when I was a child as I felt so misunderstood, I hated myself for how I could react to situations, I thought I was a bad person and had significant mental health issues all through my teenage years and into my twenties. Receiving a diagnosis finally helped me to make sense of myself, why I became dysregulated and overstimulated and how I could help avoid this happening. I would be very upset if I found out that my parents had suspected I was neurodivergent all along and just chosen not to persue a diagnosis for fear of ‘labelling’ me. The’ label’ has been immensely helpful to me and I wish I had known it earlier.

I don’t understand not wanting to ‘stick a label’ on your child. If you have a bag of apples but it also contains one pear then the pear is still a pear regardless of whether you choose to label it as such. Ignoring the fact the pear is different because you don’t want to label it isn’t going to make it an apple no matter how hard you try to ignore the fact it’s a pear. If your daughter is neurodivergent choosing not to look into a diagnosis because you don’t want to ‘stick a label’ on her won’t stop her being neurodivergent, all it means is she isn’t getting the support that might be available to her. All you’re doing is choosing to make life harder for her because she’s being told she’s an apple and needs to be and act like an apple despite the fact she’s a pear. You can’t make a pear into an apple by pretending the difference isn’t there anymore than you can make a neurodivergent child into a neurotypical one.

@MolkosTeenageAngst and when exactly did I say I’m refusing to look at diagnosis? I’ve repeatedly said I have a call with a psychologist, and I also have a call booked with her school.

However, I am refusing to stick a label on her without considering anxiety, loneliness, the need to spend more time with me and my parenting techniques. I.e. I’m taking responsibility, and have been doing for a while now and looking at our home dynamics and what we might be doing wrong and how we can help.

The fact you keep saying you’re concerned to ‘stick a label’ on her tells me everything one needs to know about your attitude to diagnosis.

If your child had physical symptoms would you delay going to the GP because you didn’t want to ‘stick a label’ on your child? If people kept saying ‘it sounds like diabetes’ or ‘it sounds like the arm is broken’ would you umm and aah and navel-gaze about what else it might be and what you might to do instead of getting her to a medical professional for worry about giving her a ‘label.’

If your child doesn’t have autism/ ADHD nobody will ‘stick a label’ on her to say she does. If she does have one or both conditions then she will receive a diagnosis, not a label, a diagnosis, to reflect that.

If you’ve thought it might be ASD in the past (you refer to this possibility in your OP so it’s obviously not a new idea to you) why haven’t you gone to the GP and gotten the ball rolling long before this thread and why do you keep referring to getting a diagnosis as ‘sticking a label’ on her? Do you consider seeking diagnosis for conditions such as epilepsy, diabetes, cancer etc as labelling people as well?

Hey OP. Alot of what you say is so familiar. Mum's in this situation have really common experiences and I've had a few of yours myself.

Your daughter is ND. I believe you know this. You have parents in your ear who are gaslighting your inner knowing. You know she is ND. This looks in every way to me just like PDA ( autism) ADHD also seems plausible.

It sounds contradictory but taking away some stress in her life is always what improves behaviour.

I'm regularly in contact with a leading ND expert child psychiatrist. She confirms every time that life is so stressful for ND /PDA kids navigating life and school that you can't even begin to understand it. And that stress will turn into rages as it builds up. Usually presented at home. To mum usually.

Please stop with the chores talk. Look at what you can let go of. The chores can come in much later.

School really don't know shit here. I will know more than some concerning teachers here on this thread about this situation and I say that with absolute confidence. We mum's on here live it.

My ND child has 3 conditions. I stood alone pushing for assessment. School, my own family and even his dad gaslit me continually using phrases just like your parents. Your parents need to keep their noses out is my first recommendation. Don't ask their advice any more. 💪I would set a boundary immediately with them. E.g This discussion is now off limits.

I would pursue an assessment for Autism because it really helps everything down the line. Secondary school is going to get worse. This is true. The demands becomes harder and the stress becomes very difficult. The rage can therefore intensify at home. You don't want this.

I would not ask for anyone's opinion or advice now on this possibility.she is ND in school or parents or friends. You know. The resistance is a normal part of this. The gaslighting you are experiencing is making this much harder for you. You get confused by gaslighters. I did I recall. I felt mad at one point.

Psychologists even get it wrong here. She's definitely masking in school. That feeds explosions at home you see. It's the coke bottle theory. The only people who can help you here are accredited assessors following ADOS Autism assessment process as per NICE guidance. Everyone and everyone else is just a distraction and will very possibly gaslight you more. That can even include SENCOs and a psychologist who is not an ASOS approved assessor.

Specific challenges:

The teeth brushing, showering, organising will be horrible for her. She will resist that. Try understand and ease off a bit. If she won't brush one night, forget it and say do a double brush in the morning? This is the mentality that works and helps.

Does she have to wear pjs? If it's a difficult evening, ask her what she wants. Go to bed in undies or whatever.

You have an overwhelming need for control yourself I feel, which is fine. But your daughter does too. She has to have some control, give her this. 🙏

The very basic needs for your daughter here are;

Autonomy ( control over her life. It's a pathological need in fact). Giving her choices will help give her this. Choices such as ' brush teeth now or in twenty minutes?' ' You aren't brushing tonight? Double brush tomorrow instead? Or I'll have to do it for you. Which one?'

Lower demands - where you don't have to have her do it, let it go. EMG forcing putting a coat on. Let it go of she kicks off. Being rigid. Just let it go.

The bedroom is going to be a long standing problem. It's an executive functioning problem and not because she can't be arsed. The less she has in her room the easier. Less clutter. Make it simple and basic with labels on drawers, a bin and boxes, tubs with toys.

I repeatedly tell my teen these 4 things.ref room cleaning I. Bed ii. Clothes iii. Dishes Iv. Rubbish

He gets what that means. It's easier. Even a visual poster helped.

With a diagnosis you can help her understand, you can understand, family can piss off with their judgement of you and her. Most importantly, school will have to make it a bit easier. She's masking so it's in truth going to be really hard for her. They will stand up if you present the diagnosed and just check on how they can make life a bit easier in school. Schools lie often of they can. They're busy and just want parents to go away. This will help remind them of their obligation, help your daughter and help you.