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Help- don’t know how to deal with 10 yo DD behaviour

188 replies

Diddlypop · 02/06/2025 07:41

Hi,

I’m looking for advice about my DD behaviour and how to tackle it. Please be kind, this keeps me up at night and I’m so worried, and apologies for the length.

My DD is highly intelligent (reading age of 13 at age 6, flies through maths, can do complex Lego in a couple of hours etc) and her school thinks she is wonderful. They’ve described her as bubbly, helpful, and kind but we’re having a lot of problems at home and have been since she was 2.

She tends to fly in to uncontrollable rages, screams, throws things, attacks us (me usually) and she’s increasingly not doing anything she’s told to do. For example if she’s told to go upstairs and get ready for bed you can guarantee she’s not doing it despite promises to. I have to go up after 10-15 minutes whereby she’ll quickly scoot in to her room and start but I have to keep checking. If you tell her to tidy her room she’ll barely do any of it. I won’t go in to the long history of events but they include destroying her room because we told her we were all going on holiday, attacking me on holiday because I insisted she brush her teeth, breaking doors through slamming them, throwing a full pot of e45 cream on a carpet in a rage etc.

I told her and her younger sister to help me fold washing the other week and she was balling her fists and flinging it about. I got fed up and sent her to her room to calm down but she was screaming and throwing things for about an hour before eventually she calmed down (whereby I had her fold and put away the rest of the washing).

She occasionally is incredibly helpful but it’s rare. She can also be very loving and caring if her sister but then really mean to her as well.

She goes through fads of defiance such as refusing to brush her teeth (the toothpaste is too strong, brushing hurts etc), it’s a huge drama and then suddenly it’s not a problem anymore and she enjoys it. Currently she’s not changing her underwear daily. I caught this by chance and now I’m finding I have to check every day. She’s 10 and I can’t see this is normal, is it?

My parents think she’s attention seeking from what they’ve seen (and also a bit lazy) as this all started after her sister arrived when she was 2. Trying to get to the bottom of it I calmly observed her yesterday, didn’t get angry when she acted badly. There were 8 times she kicked off or got upset!

Not going through all of them, her sister wouldn’t let her play with her toy. This resulted in DD getting upset and asking me to make her. I said no as her it belongs to her sister and she’d only just started playing with it. She loudly cried in her room and ranted about it, but when her sister gave her the toy 10 minutes later she didn’t want it, was back to normal like nothing happened.

We were hanging pictures in her room but it was a mess so I told her we’d do it after she’d made her bed. She did a half arsed job hiding blankets under her duvet. I told her to do it properly and she flew in to a crying, ranting rage. Trying not to get annoyed we carried on with other jobs but she gets louder to try to get us to go to her (if we did she’d get even louder or prolong it from experience) and when that didn’t work she came out and did it on the landing near us. It’s hardly ever real crying and she eventually calmed down and made

At other points in the day she would sit near me looking sad but wouldn’t tell me what was wrong. Like switch had been flicked she’s suddenly back normal like nothing had happened.

She tends to mess about at bed time (it’s been worse recently) and will secretly read after being told to go to sleep. We spend our evenings going up to check because we’ve caught her reading until midnight in the past. She’s taken torches, head lamps, toys that light up, anything she can get her hands on so she can secretly read. I check her bed and drawers but she then sneaks out to find something or cracks her door to let light in. When we talk to her she’s very sorry and will “definitely go to sleep” but you can guarantee that 10 minutes later you’ll find her door open again.

We’ve tried letting her stay up an extra half an hour to read on the understanding that she then goes straight to sleep but she never does.

Tiredness could be a factor but even when she’s slept she’s like this.

Behaviour is worse in the mornings and evenings. Clothes and the feeling of clothes is usually a problem. She won’t get uniform on with someone standing over her. You’ll instead catch her reading or playing but often loud games, she’s trying to tell us she’s not doing as she’s told which again leads us to the attention seeking.

I would say I’m strict, there are always consequences and I can get cross, but I’ve also tried be patient, ignoring it, talking to her, trying to understand. I’ve run out of ideas.

When we get cross I find her reaction is odd. Her sister would look guilty and sorry or upset but DD10 gets angry even when she’s done something really bad and she knows it. The angrier we are the angrier she is. She can be quite cutting with the things she says when this going on.

We’ve considered whether this is autism (there are other small indicators such as emotions or reactions often seem staged like it’s something she’s seen and is trying out, lack of empathy, the intelligence, extreme emotions (very angry or very sad, extreme excitement) that often seem misplaced.) She went through a short stage out of the blue at 18 months of banging her head on the cot in the middle of the night when she woke up. She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities. Her cousin has autism (non verbal).

I’ve also considered whether she wants more attention from me so I’m trying to do more 1:1 with both children. Following one afternoon with her last week she kicked off again so it’s not working yet.

For people looking in she’s articulate, intelligent, great at making friends, well behaved etc, but we’re struggling at home. Any advice?

OP posts:
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BunnyRuddington · 02/06/2025 08:06

If you’ve considered ASD, and tou alrwsdy have it in the family, have you asked for a referral?

A lot of what you say she struggles with sounds like ASD and particularly PDA. Have a look on the PDA website and look at using declarative language.

Not being able to get to sleep is fairly common too with ASD. She’s not being naughty, she’s genuinely struggling.

Things like a weighted blanket, some sleepy cream from lush and exercise every day may help. I’d also let her read if that’s what she wants to do.

As for her intelligence Thats fairly common too. I would do the 9 year progress checker from Speech and Language UK. They are a very well respected charity. Sometimes it can be hard to tell if our DC have difficulty with some aspects of communication. For example our DC2 struggles with telling us how they feel but it wouldn’t be obvious to others.

As for things like the toothpaste, you can get toothpastes that are flavourless or foam less so they aren’t as overwhelming.

Have you looked at buying underwear that is less overloading too? There should be some threads in the archives on seamless underwear and socks or you could ask in the SN Children Section.

I would talk to her school, tell them that she’s struggling with sleep, self regulation, demand avoidance and sensory overload at home and ask of theor SENCO can observe. Although if she behaves in school they may say she’s five in which case you’ll need to speak to the GP.

It might be worth speaking to Caudwell Children for their advice too.

And I think you need to stop the comments from the DGPs in the bud. It doesn’t sound as though she’s being naughty at all. She’s a little girl who is wired differently and struggling with the demands made of her. Comments like that will deeply undermine her confidence.

Illustration of a person with a backpack standing in front of several road signs pointing in different directions, symbolizing the challenges and choices faced by individuals with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA).

What is PDA? - PDA Society

The term PDA stands for Pathological Demand Avoidance. This is widely understood to be a profile found within some autistic people. The most obvious

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda/

cocolokiko · 02/06/2025 09:20

I agree this sounds like a neurodiverse child. I would speak to GP and school asap.

lljkk · 02/06/2025 09:56

her school thinks she is wonderful.
There are reasons outside your control, to explain why that environment might be easier for her to keep self-control.

She tends to fly in to uncontrollable rages, screams, throws things, attacks us (me usually)
All of that (& further details) are alarming but there's a lot you can do to de-escalate that might prevent the strong emotions (in both of you) and also help her learn emotional self-control.

if she’s told to go upstairs and get ready for bed you can guarantee she’s not doing it despite promises to. I have to go up after 10-15 minutes
If they can't organise selves to do something essential, then expect to stand over them and quietly & firmly & calmly & kindly keep telling them next step they need to be doing. Focus them away from all distractions and quietly pester until essential action is done. Stop thinking "she should do x!" and just help her do it.

She occasionally is incredibly helpful but it’s rare. She can also be very loving and caring if her sister but then really mean to her as well.
Siblings with love-hate relationship? Gosh, who ever heard of that... My dad & his 82yo twin were enjoying sniping at each other yesterday (they are also tightest buddies ever)

I don't know how often DD changed her underwear at 10 & I agree with her that toothpaste tastes foul and hurts my mouth & always did. Dental hygienist thought it was the wildest thing she ever heard when I said that, meanwhile the strong mint is painful to me...

My parents think she’s attention seeking from what they’ve seen (and also a bit lazy)
Laziness is a human virtue & drives all technological innovation. Attention-seeking is Normal too. Especially for children.

Reading thru all your examples I can't get over impression that she feels not listened to. That's why she's fallen into habit of quickly kicking off, she doesn't think any other strategy is better. I don't know your path to making her feel more listened to. You're both in a bad cycle, need to learn new habits.

she would sit near me looking sad but wouldn’t tell me what was wrong.
Create quiet safe spaces for her to articulate whatever is in her head. And allow her to have whatever her emotions are.

Like switch had been flicked she’s suddenly back normal like nothing had happened.
Yeah... that switching thing gets worse when they are teenagers. Be ready! Enjoy the good moments & don't stay stuck in bad moments.

we’ve caught her reading until midnight in the past.
in time-honoured fashion. Janet St. Porter is on radio right now saying she did same as child (including the smuggled torches).

attention seeking.
most kids attention seek. Especially more extroverted kids.

When we get cross ... DD10 gets angry even when she’s done something really bad and she knows it.
That's a common reaction, afraid of the damage to the relationship, responding highly defensively.

The angrier we are the angrier she is.
Many people react to anger in others like that. The more mature person (you) should avoid getting angry to model to her how to handle conflict without anger,

She can be quite cutting with the things she says when this going on.
You said she's articulate and she stands up for herself: good thing that she stands up for herself.

She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities.
Active busy extroverted mind is not a bad thing.

There's a lot you can do to de-escalate conflicts, like don't get angry. Stay factual. Remind her of the principles of nicely resolving conflicts. STOP comparing her to her sister.

Feel free to ignore my suggestions. You asked for advice. That is mine.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

lljkk · 02/06/2025 09:57

ps: Try reading the Explosive Child. It helped me change my mindset A Lot. Possibly out dated now, but might be cheap copies.

YesHonestly · 02/06/2025 09:59

I read this and almost immediately thought ASD.

I recognise so much with my own daughter. It’s incredibly common for “symptoms” to start to appear around age 8, which ties in. It also sounds like she could be masking in school.

librathroughandthrough · 02/06/2025 10:39

Great posts @lljkk

Olderbeforemytime · 02/06/2025 10:52

Sound like ASD with SPD and maybe issues with executive fuction. Like a PP this lots is similiar to my child. In a nut shell she isn’t misbehaving. I would get assessed for ASD.

For sensory issues look at what you can to reduce issues eg oranurse tooth paste, ear loops (especially for school). You need to involve school in this because it sounds like she is masking at school which will have a massive negative effect on her mental health.

Look at the autistic girl network.

Use visual timetables for getting ready. Seamless knickers can be more comfortable.

Looking into body doubling for tidying or listening to a podcast at the same time can help.

Look into heavy work to support regulation.

Don’t wait for assessment to put strategies in place to help her do it now.

GoldDuster · 02/06/2025 11:05

We’ve considered whether this is autism (there are other small indicators such as emotions or reactions often seem staged like it’s something she’s seen and is trying out, lack of empathy, the intelligence, extreme emotions (very angry or very sad, extreme excitement) that often seem misplaced.) She went through a short stage out of the blue at 18 months of banging her head on the cot in the middle of the night when she woke up. She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities. Her cousin has autism (non verbal).

This is buried quite deep in your post but I feel this is where to concentrate. The behaviour is just the behaviour, to find out what's behind it, I think start here.

WitchesofPainswick · 02/06/2025 11:09

What others have said. I'd also add as a parent with an autistic reading child, that I always overlooked the 'naughty' reading. I find it hard to punish reading. It really expands their minds and helps them regulate. I would turn a blind eye to this and she will probably learn her limits over time.

(TOTALLY different to phone use.)

BunnyRuddington · 02/06/2025 18:40

WitchesofPainswick · 02/06/2025 11:09

What others have said. I'd also add as a parent with an autistic reading child, that I always overlooked the 'naughty' reading. I find it hard to punish reading. It really expands their minds and helps them regulate. I would turn a blind eye to this and she will probably learn her limits over time.

(TOTALLY different to phone use.)

Agree that it’s totally different to phone use.

I still use reading to calm me and switch off the thoughts before bed and I keep my phone on charge downstairs.

Katherina198819 · 02/06/2025 19:25

There’s a chance it might be something more, but in my opinion, she’s behaving this way because she knows she can get away with it.

My own child would never dare to do most of the things you’ve described, and I think that’s because we consistently set boundaries from an early age. It sounds like she may have learned that certain behaviors are tolerated, and now it’s escalated. You mentioned there aren’t always consequences—why is that? What do you do when she’s attacking you? You said you try to stay calm and talk to her. Why?

I’m sorry, but in my experience working with autistic children, the school would have noticed by now. If she can behave there, she can behave at home too—the difference is that at school, she knows she must follow the rules, while at home she doesn't have to.

Paperumbrella · 02/06/2025 19:37

Katherina198819 · 02/06/2025 19:25

There’s a chance it might be something more, but in my opinion, she’s behaving this way because she knows she can get away with it.

My own child would never dare to do most of the things you’ve described, and I think that’s because we consistently set boundaries from an early age. It sounds like she may have learned that certain behaviors are tolerated, and now it’s escalated. You mentioned there aren’t always consequences—why is that? What do you do when she’s attacking you? You said you try to stay calm and talk to her. Why?

I’m sorry, but in my experience working with autistic children, the school would have noticed by now. If she can behave there, she can behave at home too—the difference is that at school, she knows she must follow the rules, while at home she doesn't have to.

This was my reaction too, because of the multiple times in the post that OP says her daughter makes a huge drama about something only to immediately not be bothered any more once attention has been given to her. People are recommending different toothpastes but OP said she picks and chooses when to kick up a fuss about this and other things.

orangetriangle · 02/06/2025 19:44

this sounds very much like ASD to me i would absolutely look into this

Disco2022 · 02/06/2025 19:49

Just as an alternate view if academics are her strong point and she has a good relationship with her current teacher it's absolutely feasible depending on the school that they may not have flagged as ASD. Girls are SO good at masking and it's often at home where they drop the school façade.
All of the things that you will put in place if she were ASD will still provide boundaries and help her if it is "just behavioural" but in reality there is no such thing as "just behavioural" there's an unmet need, and undiagnosed SN/ND or something else is wrong that she can't articulate and is acting out in these behaviours.

Diddlypop · 02/06/2025 22:02

@Katherina198819 no, I said there are always consequences- these include being sent to her room, having pocket money withheld or even deducted. Certain behaviours now incur a cost as money is so important to her and I was sick of paying to repair doors. She will miss out on activities, parties, treats etc.

I come from a very strict family so my instinct is to get really cross and the girls definitely respond better to me than their Dad (they know they’re in trouble when I’m involved) but as we’ve found that shouting often escalates the behaviour I’ve been forced to look at how I parent over and over and I’ve now tried everything including staying calm and ignoring or discussing it with her.

My other daughter wouldn’t dare behave this way which is why we’re questioning what the difference is.

OP posts:
drspouse · 02/06/2025 22:16

This is my DD. We are going to start a referral for ADHD. She has very few problems socially though is a little young for her age, more academic problems than your DD, though not as many sensory issues.
We do find she is quite reward driven (as is DS who is already diagnosed). She had a tantrum over practicing the flute at the weekend. I worked out what she couldn't do, broke it down into bits, and bribed her with a chocolate button for every line. Second day she got one for the complete piece.
She also does better if you just leave her to work out the tantrum (on Sat she WASN'T going cycling NO WAY but DH just waited calmly and she got her stuff together.
If it is ADHD that explains the difficulty sleeping too.
Consequences work less well than rewards in ADHD. I've recommended this so many times but ADHD Dude (on YouTube or he has a podcast) has totally transformed our family. You do also need to investigate medication though.

I'm also a bit of a shouter but have to bite my tongue and walk out of the room.

Diddlypop · 02/06/2025 22:23

Thanks everyone. The different opinions reflects our conflicting view of what might be happening.

The toothpaste, uncomfortable clothes etc only happens for short periods (a few weeks etc) which, although the issues tally with autism, the way they’re then forgotten then makes me think it’s attention seeking.
Also the feeling sad and moping near me and then snapping out of it.

Although she was pretty high maintenance before, this all really started when her sister was born who was really ill and in hospital with me for weeks afterwards.

We were incredibly close when she was little but when she kicks off a lot of the anger is directed at me and I wonder if that’s because of her sister’s arrival.

She’s not only well behaved at school, if anything she’s a kiss ass with the teacher 😂- offers to help clean the classroom and carry things for her, dobs in the kids for bad behaviour (similar behaviour to the behaviour she displays at home which she’s horrified by at school), writes “best teacher” cards to the teacher etc.

There was some messing about at bedtime last night (going in her sister’s room, wandering about etc) and she looked knackered this morning so I had a stern word this expecting a tantrum. She apologised and hugged me and agreed to do better tonight. She’s been down once tonight and then straight back up when I gave her a stern look. On the flip side after helping her with her bedding this morning and telling her to place her blanket on her bed she threw herself wailing on the bed and had a 10 minute very loud rant to herself, before calming down and acting like nothing had happened. I know if I’d stepped in to tell her to stop at that point it would have escalated.

I’ve booked an event to go to at the weekend for just the two of us (her sister is going for a treat with her Dad) and I’m encouraging her to come with me to do errands (go to the shops etc) making sure I spend equal time with her sister. We’re also trying to praise more than criticise to see if it helps.

OP posts:
drspouse · 02/06/2025 22:53

With the sensory issues, our DS has both sensory sensitivity and anxiety about it. So he thinks his bike helmet will hurt, and gets upset about it. If gradually introduced to something new, he will get used to it, but if you try to be firm or spring it on him he will react badly.
Much "attention seeking" is more "learning this gets the reaction you want" e.g. attention but another e.g. is not having to do the thing.

BunnyRuddington · 03/06/2025 07:24

@Diddlypop are you sure that there were no signs until DD2 arrived? She wasn’t a quiet baby? Had no issues with sleep or food? No hyperlexia or speech delay?

Being a “goody two shoes” in class can also be a sign. She isn’t picking up on the social cues from her peers that telling tales and snitching is deeply uncool. Most DC realise this by about 7.

Did you manage to call Caudwell Children or speak to her Teacher?

Ultimately there is only one way to find out if she had ASD and Thats to get her assessed. If she doesn’t have it then she won’t get a diagnosis.

So far you’ve had a thread almost full of MNers saying that they think it’s ASD and one person saying it’s your parenting.

I think that you know by now that regular discipline techniques simply don’t work with ND DC, you’re probably experiencing this every day.

Our schools were equally adamant that it was our parenting and nothing different about DC2 even though they’d taught their elder sibling and knew us.

In the end we bypassed school abd went through the GP.

Needlenardlenoo · 03/06/2025 07:34

The books The Explosive Child and 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child have got lots of useful tips.

Olderbeforemytime · 03/06/2025 07:34

Katherina198819 · 02/06/2025 19:25

There’s a chance it might be something more, but in my opinion, she’s behaving this way because she knows she can get away with it.

My own child would never dare to do most of the things you’ve described, and I think that’s because we consistently set boundaries from an early age. It sounds like she may have learned that certain behaviors are tolerated, and now it’s escalated. You mentioned there aren’t always consequences—why is that? What do you do when she’s attacking you? You said you try to stay calm and talk to her. Why?

I’m sorry, but in my experience working with autistic children, the school would have noticed by now. If she can behave there, she can behave at home too—the difference is that at school, she knows she must follow the rules, while at home she doesn't have to.

🙄

Nope they won’t, especially if the child is intelligent and high masking. Unless you get a teacher with personal experience or extensive training (very rare) then it will be lost in a class of 30 kids. A specialist teacher, clinical pyschologist or ed psych will spot it when observing just the child in class and playtime but most regular teachers just teaching the full class won’t. I say this as an ex teacher. I’m not dissing teachers but commenting on the masking skills of children, the lack of training and high work load of teachers. My child’s school said no she is just anxious, specialist teacher in lang and comm said you’re on the right track getting her assessed (she obv couldn’t diagnosis) and clincial pyschologist said it was very obvious from her observation.

Diddlypop · 03/06/2025 08:33

@BunnyRuddington she was a very loud, excitable, highly active baby and toddler. I used to take her to 9 baby groups a week during maternity leave because she was so active and needed a lot of stimulation. She also loved other kids and was very independent. Early walker (standing holding on to the sofa at 4 months!) and talker. Riding a balance bike at 11 months.

Pickiness with food started at about 3 when there was a picky child at nursery and a lot of the kids apparently started to copy. That’s continued but her Dad is very picky (worse than her).

Up until her sister arriving she was very full on but the rage started after her sister was born.

OP posts:
Katherina198819 · 03/06/2025 09:02

Olderbeforemytime · 03/06/2025 07:34

🙄

Nope they won’t, especially if the child is intelligent and high masking. Unless you get a teacher with personal experience or extensive training (very rare) then it will be lost in a class of 30 kids. A specialist teacher, clinical pyschologist or ed psych will spot it when observing just the child in class and playtime but most regular teachers just teaching the full class won’t. I say this as an ex teacher. I’m not dissing teachers but commenting on the masking skills of children, the lack of training and high work load of teachers. My child’s school said no she is just anxious, specialist teacher in lang and comm said you’re on the right track getting her assessed (she obv couldn’t diagnosis) and clincial pyschologist said it was very obvious from her observation.

I get what you’re saying, but I think there is a chance that it might be more about parenting than autism. From what OP described, it sounds like there’s a lack of consistent discipline — she’s expecting her child to handle things alone when maybe she still needs guidance. She’s also comparing her daughter to her sister, which might not be fair.

Before jumping to the conclusion that it’s autism, I think it’s worth looking at the parenting approach. Nowadays, a lot of parents tend to assume there’s something wrong with the child instead of reflecting on their own methods. We’ve swung from one extreme to the other — from being too strict to being too permissive.

As a teacher, I see so many kids who are anxious, angry, and struggle to behave — not necessarily because they have autism, but because they haven’t learned how to handle life’s challenges. The “gentle” approach can work, but it only goes so far before boundaries and discipline are needed too.

Again, I’m not trying to rule out the possibility of autism or another condition. I’m just suggesting that maybe it’s not necessarily the child’s fault.

Olderbeforemytime · 03/06/2025 10:40

Katherina198819 · 03/06/2025 09:02

I get what you’re saying, but I think there is a chance that it might be more about parenting than autism. From what OP described, it sounds like there’s a lack of consistent discipline — she’s expecting her child to handle things alone when maybe she still needs guidance. She’s also comparing her daughter to her sister, which might not be fair.

Before jumping to the conclusion that it’s autism, I think it’s worth looking at the parenting approach. Nowadays, a lot of parents tend to assume there’s something wrong with the child instead of reflecting on their own methods. We’ve swung from one extreme to the other — from being too strict to being too permissive.

As a teacher, I see so many kids who are anxious, angry, and struggle to behave — not necessarily because they have autism, but because they haven’t learned how to handle life’s challenges. The “gentle” approach can work, but it only goes so far before boundaries and discipline are needed too.

Again, I’m not trying to rule out the possibility of autism or another condition. I’m just suggesting that maybe it’s not necessarily the child’s fault.

I understand what you’re saying but this is also a child with a reading age of 13 at 6 and has sensory issues. She has a very spikey profile of abilities. Some thing more is going on here than just parenting.

FumingTRex · 03/06/2025 10:59

Hello I agree this sounds like neurodiversity - possibly ADHD as well as autism. Its normal for the sensitivity to socks, toothpaste etc to vary. In my experience the sensitivity is worse when the child is more stressed. When they are calm they can tolerate a lot more.

I also think your expectations are very high. Some kids do what they are told all the time, but some dont. If you are constantly telling off and punishing, she will feel insecure and the behaviour will get worse. You need to be sure your expectations are close to what she can actually do. So for example, its clear she cannot get ready for bed without being distracted. so just supervise her and if necessary she can get changed in the bathroom where there are fewer distractions. If she has ADHD she will need much more support with this for much longer than an average child.

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