Help- don’t know how to deal with 10 yo DD behaviour

[Diddlypop]

Hi,

I’m looking for advice about my DD behaviour and how to tackle it. Please be kind, this keeps me up at night and I’m so worried, and apologies for the length.

My DD is highly intelligent (reading age of 13 at age 6, flies through maths, can do complex Lego in a couple of hours etc) and her school thinks she is wonderful. They’ve described her as bubbly, helpful, and kind but we’re having a lot of problems at home and have been since she was 2.

She tends to fly in to uncontrollable rages, screams, throws things, attacks us (me usually) and she’s increasingly not doing anything she’s told to do. For example if she’s told to go upstairs and get ready for bed you can guarantee she’s not doing it despite promises to. I have to go up after 10-15 minutes whereby she’ll quickly scoot in to her room and start but I have to keep checking. If you tell her to tidy her room she’ll barely do any of it. I won’t go in to the long history of events but they include destroying her room because we told her we were all going on holiday, attacking me on holiday because I insisted she brush her teeth, breaking doors through slamming them, throwing a full pot of e45 cream on a carpet in a rage etc.

I told her and her younger sister to help me fold washing the other week and she was balling her fists and flinging it about. I got fed up and sent her to her room to calm down but she was screaming and throwing things for about an hour before eventually she calmed down (whereby I had her fold and put away the rest of the washing).

She occasionally is incredibly helpful but it’s rare. She can also be very loving and caring if her sister but then really mean to her as well.

She goes through fads of defiance such as refusing to brush her teeth (the toothpaste is too strong, brushing hurts etc), it’s a huge drama and then suddenly it’s not a problem anymore and she enjoys it. Currently she’s not changing her underwear daily. I caught this by chance and now I’m finding I have to check every day. She’s 10 and I can’t see this is normal, is it?

My parents think she’s attention seeking from what they’ve seen (and also a bit lazy) as this all started after her sister arrived when she was 2. Trying to get to the bottom of it I calmly observed her yesterday, didn’t get angry when she acted badly. There were 8 times she kicked off or got upset!

Not going through all of them, her sister wouldn’t let her play with her toy. This resulted in DD getting upset and asking me to make her. I said no as her it belongs to her sister and she’d only just started playing with it. She loudly cried in her room and ranted about it, but when her sister gave her the toy 10 minutes later she didn’t want it, was back to normal like nothing happened.

We were hanging pictures in her room but it was a mess so I told her we’d do it after she’d made her bed. She did a half arsed job hiding blankets under her duvet. I told her to do it properly and she flew in to a crying, ranting rage. Trying not to get annoyed we carried on with other jobs but she gets louder to try to get us to go to her (if we did she’d get even louder or prolong it from experience) and when that didn’t work she came out and did it on the landing near us. It’s hardly ever real crying and she eventually calmed down and made

At other points in the day she would sit near me looking sad but wouldn’t tell me what was wrong. Like switch had been flicked she’s suddenly back normal like nothing had happened.

She tends to mess about at bed time (it’s been worse recently) and will secretly read after being told to go to sleep. We spend our evenings going up to check because we’ve caught her reading until midnight in the past. She’s taken torches, head lamps, toys that light up, anything she can get her hands on so she can secretly read. I check her bed and drawers but she then sneaks out to find something or cracks her door to let light in. When we talk to her she’s very sorry and will “definitely go to sleep” but you can guarantee that 10 minutes later you’ll find her door open again.

We’ve tried letting her stay up an extra half an hour to read on the understanding that she then goes straight to sleep but she never does.

Tiredness could be a factor but even when she’s slept she’s like this.

Behaviour is worse in the mornings and evenings. Clothes and the feeling of clothes is usually a problem. She won’t get uniform on with someone standing over her. You’ll instead catch her reading or playing but often loud games, she’s trying to tell us she’s not doing as she’s told which again leads us to the attention seeking.

I would say I’m strict, there are always consequences and I can get cross, but I’ve also tried be patient, ignoring it, talking to her, trying to understand. I’ve run out of ideas.

When we get cross I find her reaction is odd. Her sister would look guilty and sorry or upset but DD10 gets angry even when she’s done something really bad and she knows it. The angrier we are the angrier she is. She can be quite cutting with the things she says when this going on.

We’ve considered whether this is autism (there are other small indicators such as emotions or reactions often seem staged like it’s something she’s seen and is trying out, lack of empathy, the intelligence, extreme emotions (very angry or very sad, extreme excitement) that often seem misplaced.) She went through a short stage out of the blue at 18 months of banging her head on the cot in the middle of the night when she woke up. She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities. Her cousin has autism (non verbal).

I’ve also considered whether she wants more attention from me so I’m trying to do more 1:1 with both children. Following one afternoon with her last week she kicked off again so it’s not working yet.

For people looking in she’s articulate, intelligent, great at making friends, well behaved etc, but we’re struggling at home. Any advice?

Also the majority of EBSA are SEND. So they don’t like the routine much either.

Don’t be in denial here OP, it is very clear from what you have written that you have a neurodiverse child. The days aren’t always 100% difficult but the majority of them are, I think you should definitely take her in for an autism assessment and let the professionals rule things out.

Being a massively anxious people pleaser who wants to be seen to follow the rules by people in authority can also be a feature of ND.

your way isn’t working - it’s concerning how reluctant you are to actually investigate an assessment or even look into any of the resources being recommended to you. You’re just latching onto the people saying “be stricter”. You need to understand that you might need to have different expectations for each of your children and parent them according to their needs

So clueless. And upsetting to hear you work with autistic children too.

Love your post @lljkk

Have you tried problem solving with her? At 10 she knows her behaviour isn't appropriate- have you talked to her about why she behaves so differently at school with teachers than with you?

I think kids like this who are completely dysregulated need all the dysregulation unraveled…for us that included a big stretch of removing demands and explosive child problem solving through a load of things so that now I’m layering more and more boundaries for my son - so one example was all the ways he was physically attacking me age 2, I basically let him get away with violent language and breaking stuff for almost 2 years. Now that he is less violent than other kids his age I am working really hard on the violent language. I also have to chunk it up more than for my younger son. Like figure out a definition of name calling he can understand and if he name calls and it wasn’t in that definition, pause on punishing and adjust the rule when he’s calm and then punish if he tries the same exception. And yes there is a rule about not trying to get around the rules…so the leniency is for when he really doesn’t understand that he’s breaking a rule.

that kid knew the whole solar system and all his dinos at age 2, my younger knew Trex vs Godzilla…roar! But could intuit social rules. I just need to dedicate my time to teaching social skills with my oldest and academics to my youngest.

OP your daughter is older and is at least as frustrated as you are. I actually agree with both the supernanny and low demand approaches because that’s what I do! Apparently in gentle parenting you do a “time in” while I am happy to call the same thing a time out or a naughty step.

Everything @lljkk said.

Also toothpaste used to hurt my gums. A dentist told me to brush with water as the brushing is what matters. I actually started using powdered tooth paste at about the same age.

Just to add, although I thought, ASD whatever it is, it is not her deliberately wanting to upset you.

Can you make a time table? So it is not, 'go get ready for bed' it is, 'What's on the timetable for this evening?'

Research is still limited into masking though! Yet everyone talks about it like it is well researched.

“Recently, an increasing, though still insufficient, number of studies have been conducted on the concept of camouflage; however, different aspects of it, from psychopathology and etiology to its complications and consequences, are not clearly defined.”
What concerns me is armchair diagnosis.

And it’s typically the armchair diagnosers who are flaming those who say - boundaries/consequences worked for me.
Globally, we are near the top in terms of rates of diagnosis. We also have a SEND system in crisis and an unacceptably high rate of school exclusions.

How are other countries coping with low rates of diagnosis? Is our mental health better than say - France- who have low rates of diagnosis?

Was our mental health as a country better 20/30 years ago before the diagnosis explosion?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz0m2x30p4eo.amp

Teacher banned her from half of the sports day for having a tantrum and feeling overwhelmed one morning??

What is it about the chores too

Where are the choices and the offers with these

Psychologist here

My initial reaction to your first post almost immediately

Asc
Pda
Sensory needs

It is so hard

I totally sympathise OP xxx

@SoggySockyou seem obsessed with the idea that parents of DC with ASD use gentle parenting, don’t discipline effectively and are to blame for their DCs different behaviours.

Don’t you think that most have started out with an arsenal of the techniques that work for NT DC and found that they just don’t work for ND DC? Lots of posters, including me have said that they do enforce rules, have at least one DC who is coping and achieving but those same rules and techniques simply don’t work on the ND DC.

My DC2 was also much happier in the holidays and became anxious when it was time to go back to school. It isn’t the routine of school they liked, it was the demands of school that was burning them out.

I found our SENCOs to be overworked and underpaid but also hugely ignorant around how ASD presents in girls, dismissive and not prepared to listen.

Ended up bypassing and going through the GP.

Interest that you use France as an example. We had a family member recently go through High School in France.

They only had school for 4 days, Monday and Tuesday then Thursday and Friday. So although they didn’t like school, they never had to face more than 2 days at a time so less demand.

They also had a proper lunchtime where nutritious food and social time were prioritised unlike our recent experience of school where pupils are not drinking for the whole time they are there as they have such a short lunch break that they can’t use the toilet, eat and get to class in the allotted time.

There are also other factors, for instance domestic fuel prices are much lower in France which puts less pressure on families.

Like others have said, I hope you don’t work with DC with ASD but if you do it might be time to start listening to all of the parents instead of blaming.

@BunnyRuddington

But that goes both ways!
You are blaming and shaming me for saying boundaries/consequences are extremely important, that there is an explosion of diagnosis in this country which we cannot fund (more so than most countries worldwide), our mental health is shot, schools are at breaking point, exclusions are at a record high.

You’ve even said yourself there that in France, perhaps it’s better to look at support in place first (whether that’s diet, better structure of time in school, access to outdoor space, more physical activity and I would 100% put parental input there too) rather than jumping to a diagnosis and assuming this is a ‘difficulty’ with the child.

You address support and environment first, before jumping to diagnose.

“The social model of disability argues that people are disabled not by their impairment or difference but by barriers in society. These barriers can be physical but, just as often, they are the result of other people’s attitudes.”

Well speaking from inside the education system, and as a SEN parent, in order for that support and appropriate environment, you need that diagnosis. Let's not pretend that's not how it works in the UK right now.

@Needlenardlenoo

As a parent of a child with an EHCP I’ve experienced:

Labelling - leading to bias leading to an attempt to offroll.

The school cites funding, but I think most schools are putting the needs of the school above the needs of the child.

I 100% think the message should be : that the environment is the thing that needs to be addressed to accommodate children, and the way children are in society today. Particularly if the rate of diagnosis continues at its current rate, and ND becomes as common as NT.

I don’t like labels. I’d much prefer to change people’s attitudes. Particularly if those labels are controversial, dependent on fashion, and have much discussion about overdiagnosis, and are not resulting in great outcomes for children.

It's not just getting a label though. This is a child and a family that needs help and support. What the OP is doing isn't working. At the very least, OP and her DH need to be given a strategy that they will agree to and implement together.
OP has to face the fact that bombarding her child with constantly changing rules and consequences isn't working.
OP, you knew DD was distressed at her sister going away for a few days. This while she's already struggling from losing her friendship group due to change of school. Yet you choose this moment to introduce a new chores rota. And instead of talking it through, giving her a chance to process it and a date when it will start from (say, when sister gets back from trip) you implement it IMMEDIATELY!
You are flailing around trying to find the magic key. There isn't one. You need to get your DD and yourself the help you need. Your DD is a square peg, you can't force into a round hole.
Btw I've taught in a school with a high proportion of Nd children. Even there, a few weren't spotted by the staff, because every child is different and their ways of coping are different.

Does it matter if research is limited if it describes your child?

Where l live children are diagnosed by a neuro disability unit which is part of the children’s hospital. CAMHs are not involved.

Theres about 100 staff there. Psychologists, nurses, assistants, speech therapists. They all talk about masking and burnout frequently. Some have been there years. So it can’t be that limited if an an entire unit in the children’s NHS refer to it. It’s a centre of excellence

@Monstersfromtheid this wasn’t a “new chores rota”, this was the existing rota now written down to stop any ambiguity. We did discuss it, we’ve been discussing it with the children for weeks and both, especially DD10, were keen to have it. I love the judgemental certainty of your tone when you haven’t got a clue.

My DD10 prefers term time time to holidays so how does that fit in with the autism and ADHD diagnosis everyone here has made?

It will change when demands increase at secondary.

@Monstersfromtheid

I disagree though. I think what the OP is doing is working.
I think if she went gentle and labelled (and I think there is a lot of fear of parents damaging the child, parents losing confidence that goes with that label) - she could end up in school refusal etc.
The OP is addressing the support she is giving rather than labelling the child.

If diagnosis is likely to help, then I’m all for it. If it leads to soft strategies, the child taking charge, school refusal then absolutely not.

Wow! Ok then.

@KurtansCurtain Have you read anything I’ve posted? “Reluctant to investigate a diagnosis”?? I’ve already said I have a call arranged with an educational psychologist friend to discuss this (who specialises in autism by the way).

I refuse to diagnose from an armchair though, which it seems the majority of posters here have already done.

I agree with @SoggySock that people are too quick to put a label on kids and adults nowadays to explain away behaviour, and remove responsibility, which in some cases, is just bad behaviour.

Even if there is an underlying issue, knowing my DD, we should act without labelling because I feel strongly that a label will make things worse for her.

There’s a family at school who have 5 and 7 year old boys who have both been suspended in the last 12 months. The family are putting this down to their own diagnosis of ADHD but what I saw at the school gate was parents who never told them “no”, who ignored aggressive and rude behaviour and who offered them hundreds of choices rather than telling the the one thing they were going to do. When they were told “no” at school it was completely alien to them because they always got their own way at home.

As well as looking at underlying issues we’re also taking responsibility and looking at how we parent her.

😂😂😂

Its burnout that leads to school refusal not parenting.

@Diddlypop my ADHD DS13 is like this - the speed of his arithmetics and reading was highlighted by both psychiatrist and Pediatrician. Both said they ve rarely seen this

his emotional regulation is crap (2 year old alike), shouting , screaming, running off, fits, defiance …

what helped massively

• very clear message, if he fucks up and he lost something he can’t convince me otherwise
• not hammering him when disciplining, letting him work it out
• me/DH being very calm and quiet speaking
• me/DH being positive
• not talking about problems only ; as dr Phil says you talk about problems only then you have a problem relationship
• medication ; I am not talking about the adhd full on meds, I am talking about a daily one (prescribed by neurologist) to calm him down. This actually opens the blood vessels in the brain and enhances executive function and emotional regulation . Helped massively

Id speak to a neurologist if GP is slow and in parallel I’d look into calm but effective parenting
x