Help- don’t know how to deal with 10 yo DD behaviour

[Diddlypop]

Hi,

I’m looking for advice about my DD behaviour and how to tackle it. Please be kind, this keeps me up at night and I’m so worried, and apologies for the length.

My DD is highly intelligent (reading age of 13 at age 6, flies through maths, can do complex Lego in a couple of hours etc) and her school thinks she is wonderful. They’ve described her as bubbly, helpful, and kind but we’re having a lot of problems at home and have been since she was 2.

She tends to fly in to uncontrollable rages, screams, throws things, attacks us (me usually) and she’s increasingly not doing anything she’s told to do. For example if she’s told to go upstairs and get ready for bed you can guarantee she’s not doing it despite promises to. I have to go up after 10-15 minutes whereby she’ll quickly scoot in to her room and start but I have to keep checking. If you tell her to tidy her room she’ll barely do any of it. I won’t go in to the long history of events but they include destroying her room because we told her we were all going on holiday, attacking me on holiday because I insisted she brush her teeth, breaking doors through slamming them, throwing a full pot of e45 cream on a carpet in a rage etc.

I told her and her younger sister to help me fold washing the other week and she was balling her fists and flinging it about. I got fed up and sent her to her room to calm down but she was screaming and throwing things for about an hour before eventually she calmed down (whereby I had her fold and put away the rest of the washing).

She occasionally is incredibly helpful but it’s rare. She can also be very loving and caring if her sister but then really mean to her as well.

She goes through fads of defiance such as refusing to brush her teeth (the toothpaste is too strong, brushing hurts etc), it’s a huge drama and then suddenly it’s not a problem anymore and she enjoys it. Currently she’s not changing her underwear daily. I caught this by chance and now I’m finding I have to check every day. She’s 10 and I can’t see this is normal, is it?

My parents think she’s attention seeking from what they’ve seen (and also a bit lazy) as this all started after her sister arrived when she was 2. Trying to get to the bottom of it I calmly observed her yesterday, didn’t get angry when she acted badly. There were 8 times she kicked off or got upset!

Not going through all of them, her sister wouldn’t let her play with her toy. This resulted in DD getting upset and asking me to make her. I said no as her it belongs to her sister and she’d only just started playing with it. She loudly cried in her room and ranted about it, but when her sister gave her the toy 10 minutes later she didn’t want it, was back to normal like nothing happened.

We were hanging pictures in her room but it was a mess so I told her we’d do it after she’d made her bed. She did a half arsed job hiding blankets under her duvet. I told her to do it properly and she flew in to a crying, ranting rage. Trying not to get annoyed we carried on with other jobs but she gets louder to try to get us to go to her (if we did she’d get even louder or prolong it from experience) and when that didn’t work she came out and did it on the landing near us. It’s hardly ever real crying and she eventually calmed down and made

At other points in the day she would sit near me looking sad but wouldn’t tell me what was wrong. Like switch had been flicked she’s suddenly back normal like nothing had happened.

She tends to mess about at bed time (it’s been worse recently) and will secretly read after being told to go to sleep. We spend our evenings going up to check because we’ve caught her reading until midnight in the past. She’s taken torches, head lamps, toys that light up, anything she can get her hands on so she can secretly read. I check her bed and drawers but she then sneaks out to find something or cracks her door to let light in. When we talk to her she’s very sorry and will “definitely go to sleep” but you can guarantee that 10 minutes later you’ll find her door open again.

We’ve tried letting her stay up an extra half an hour to read on the understanding that she then goes straight to sleep but she never does.

Tiredness could be a factor but even when she’s slept she’s like this.

Behaviour is worse in the mornings and evenings. Clothes and the feeling of clothes is usually a problem. She won’t get uniform on with someone standing over her. You’ll instead catch her reading or playing but often loud games, she’s trying to tell us she’s not doing as she’s told which again leads us to the attention seeking.

I would say I’m strict, there are always consequences and I can get cross, but I’ve also tried be patient, ignoring it, talking to her, trying to understand. I’ve run out of ideas.

When we get cross I find her reaction is odd. Her sister would look guilty and sorry or upset but DD10 gets angry even when she’s done something really bad and she knows it. The angrier we are the angrier she is. She can be quite cutting with the things she says when this going on.

We’ve considered whether this is autism (there are other small indicators such as emotions or reactions often seem staged like it’s something she’s seen and is trying out, lack of empathy, the intelligence, extreme emotions (very angry or very sad, extreme excitement) that often seem misplaced.) She went through a short stage out of the blue at 18 months of banging her head on the cot in the middle of the night when she woke up. She’s always needs to be constantly stimulated with activities. Her cousin has autism (non verbal).

I’ve also considered whether she wants more attention from me so I’m trying to do more 1:1 with both children. Following one afternoon with her last week she kicked off again so it’s not working yet.

For people looking in she’s articulate, intelligent, great at making friends, well behaved etc, but we’re struggling at home. Any advice?

Totally agree that she may be able to cope with sensory issues better at sine times than others due to what else is going on. If she’s tired, stressed, upset or worried then she’s much more likely to find things like toothpaste and seams more overwhelming than tge says when ages coping better.

Sounds exactly like my 2 ADHD family members.

Thanks for everyone’s feedback.

There was an explosive episode last night and after trying all sorts to deal with things like this I feel at a loss as to what to do in the immediate aftermath to show her this is not OK.

For the last few days whenever a tantrum looked like it was coming I’ve managed to calm it by either giving her time out of the behaviour was bad or harmful, or giving her attention if she was upset etc. I’ve spent extra time with her and tried to get her more involved with what I’m doing and she seemed happier. However, last night although she came home from school in a good mood, said she’d had a great day and was chatty and bubbly and we took her to ride her bike and she loved it but then it all went horribly wrong.

We’ve made it clear to both girls that we will be setting a more formal chore plan. They have responsibilities but they usually wait to be told to do them and then argue over whose job it is so we’ll be putting a timetable up. To start this off last night I showed them whose job was what last night and told them to make a start (one set the table and tidy up a mess she’d made, and DD10 had to feed the cats and empty her lunch box — other daughter didn’t have one that day). DD10 fed one cat fine and then started to run off back to the TV. I called her back and pointed out the other cat and she started wailing and shouting.

I don’t think it helped that her Dad then started empathising with her about how he hates feeding them too because this ramped her up and instead of reluctantly doing it she doubled down. After a while she eventually did it but when it came to emptying her lunch box (which she’d tipped food in to and made a mess of) she really kicked off. I found her freaking out (balling her fists, talking to herself and getting agitated) in the hall to the point she was tipping food on the floor. I encouraged her to calm down, go in the kitchen, tip the contents in the bin and give it a wash (something she does every day) but she went ballistic, screaming, shouting, refusing to do it. She was told this wasn’t OK and to go to her room to calm down (stamping her feet, slamming the door, screaming and shouting in her room). She soon came down but with a significant attitude and again refused to do it and began literal screaming in the kitchen. She refused to go to her room several times and kicked me.

When upstairs she began trashing her bedroom, throwing things and there were enormous bangs coming from in there. I gave her space (from experience if I’d gone in she would have escalated things) and I phoned my Dad from another room for some moral support and he was appalled at what he could hear. As they have a special bond I let him talk to her and she calmed down a bit and she was told that none of this was right, I was really disappointed. I expected her to finish the job and then when she’d calmed down we discuss consequences (no bike riding after dinner- is this enough for such a massive outburst??). Instead she went downstairs and tried to watch TV with her sister and then she kicked off again and was sent to her room. All in all it went on for over an hour and a half. The neighbours were probably wondering what the hell was going on with all the screaming from her.

When she’d calmed down I spoke to her frankly about how inappropriate it all was and the need for her to contribute to the house (chores etc). She tidied her room, cleaned her lunchbox and tidied up and then came to me in tears apologising for how awful it had been. There was then some drama from my other daughter when her tooth fell out and DD10 switched back to being bubbly and helpful but tearfully apologised to her Dad her also spoke to her about awful and in appropriate it was. She went straight to bed quietly with no issues and definitely knows this was really bad.

This may or may not have contributed to it but her sister is going on her first residential today. She’s never been away from home us overnight before and DD10 has told me she’ll miss her and is a bit sad about it. DD7 also had to pack her bags with me last night and there may have been some jealousy from DD10 about it.

what would you do with her now, the next day, in terms of consequences, talking to her etc? We’ve already decided to speak to someone externally but what would you in the aftermath with her?

I’d booked a special day out for the two of us on Saturday but should she go after this? Isn’t that teaching her that stuff like this doesn’t matter? I know that as a child I’d definitely not be going if I’d done this (although I’d not have dared do this). I’ll admit we’ve been a bit inconsistent in the past (partner is too much of a push over sometimes) so should we be firm and cancel the trip? Or is no bike riding today/ the rest of the week enough considering how awful it all was?

I’ll be honest OP, you sound like a really stressful unpredictable mother to be around. I hate how you allow your parents to judge your child. There is so much wrong with how you describe your daughter and her behaviours.

look into Autism, PDA and ADHD - although I worry that you will make excuses rather than support your child and put it down to ‘bad behaviour’. Poor girl. I feel for her so much, she has a big world to navigate and you need to be her right hand person, her co-regulator.

she’s not a ‘kiss-ass ‘ she is masking at school. I feel for her so so much. Please get her assessed and start doing some reading around low-demand and how to support her.

@Diddlypop

Sounds very similar to my DD. I did speak to the school a few years ago about possibly assessing, but they said to look up strategies online associated with ADHD. I didn’t take it further.
My DS does have an EHCP, but I have to say the whole process has been a nightmare/long delays/school using EHCP to try and exclude.
With DD (and I’ll probably get told I’m completely wrong as I'm not a fan of the gentle parenting that gets associated with ADHD) - she needs boundaries and a consequence. Otherwise she would be refusing school, not doing homework, not attempting to tidy her room. I let the tantrum play out/ignore it, but so long as the job gets done - I think she needs to get that message. I stay calm. Best consequence with my DD is phone blocked for a day (or longer) - but need to find a consequence that is effective.
DD was difficult at KS1, improved enormously for KS2 - difficult at KS3 (hormones) but still better than she was at KS1.
School attendance fine, and is on a high flight path. She gets school ELSA which has been great, we’ve had a battle revising but she is now doing it.
I think you are being firm and I fully support that. I’d go for authoritative (with a gentle approach) parenting over gentle, submissive parenting every time. I think ADHD fears can lead to parents going too gentle - because the parent loses confidence and lets the child take control.

@GetMeOutOfHere20 what is unpredictable about my parenting? I’ve set boundaries, she clearly knows what’s right and what’s wrong, I try to remain calm with her, speak to her, understand what’s going on but she knows where the limits are and when she pushes them or is getting stressed she has time out and there’s a consequence when she’s destructive, hurts people, is rude or aggressive.

I’m trying to teach both children responsibility and although I agree there are elements which point towards possible autism I also see a child who throws a tantrum when told to do a chore when what she really wants is to watch TV and have us do everything for her. She also escalates and exhibits attention seeking behaviour during the tantrums so I’m trying to give her the attention she wants but only when she’s not doing what she knows is wrong.

What is unpredictable about that?

I feel like you’re not listening to the advice you’ve been given. Your child is really struggling and you’re given them more chores. If your friend was struggling with managing life and her emotionally regulation you wouldn’t be telling her to get a part time job on top of her full time job.

You need to seeking an assessment for ASD, you need an appointment with school SENCO and ask what help and referals they can put in place. You need to read how to support a child with ASD and start putting it in place. If she doesn’t have ASD none of the strategies will harm her and they will help with the specific issues she has. You need to learn about zones of regulation and teach her about them and how to identify and manage her emotions.

The problem with the additional chore is asking her to do more when she isn’t coping and the unpredictabilty of it. Imagine if you had hard day at work and spent all day thinking tonight I can chill and watch the final of the TV show I’m been watching but you come home and someone says now were going on a bike ride and as soon as you’re about to settle down and watch the show someone says at the last minute I need you to do this job now.

This sounds very much like a neurodiverse child, who may well be masking all day at school and then 'melting down' at home, her safe place. Please take the exact words you've written down here to her GP and ask for further referral/investigations. In the mean time perhaps read up on some resources regarding neurodiversity, particularly in girls. I feel her pain and very much doubt she's attention seeking or naughty for the sake of it.

I would ask her if you can get in bed with her tonight and snuggle up so she goes to sleep with you there to help get the sleep pattern back. She’ll feel really loved. She’s still such a baby. My teenage daughter used to occasionally ask to be tucked in when she’d had a rough day or wasn’t feeling herself. It’s a good time to talk.

I’d also try and give her more notice/choices around decisions. Definitely stop being so strict & let a few things slide. Pick your battles for the sake of a harmonious household e.g. the bed/picture situation maybe. Could you use humour to diffuse situations instead of getting angry? That worked wonders for mine. Feeling angry is one thing but acting it out isn’t helpful.

Good luck

I tend to agree with this, and would want to see what’s different about the home environment that’s antagonising her so much.

@SoggySock thank you.

Having tried many approaches and observed and agonised over her behaviour for years I agree gentle parenting really doesn’t work with her. It has the opposite effect and escalates her behaviour even more and makes her more stressed. She seems to thrive more from knowing where the lines are.

We’ve learnt the hard way that if we gave in and tried to gentle parent it would be even worse next time and this explosive behaviour would escalate to every day, several times a day because she got what she wanted from it last time. This isn’t good for any of us including her.

Whatever happens, I always make sure that at the end of the day she completes the task she was set so she learns this behaviour doesn’t get her out of doing it. She will then calmly do it, no sensory issues as suggested, no difficulty completing the task. Next time she’s told to do it she does it without complaint. And 9/10 times the tantrum is connected to being told to do a chore she doesn’t feel like doing.

That’s why I want to out a formal chore plan in place so this now becomes the normal routine. I’ve also found that she thrives from helping doing boring tasks with us she’d instinctively say no to (nipping to the shop with me to buy milk, pairing socks, folding the washing etc). She might complain at first but then she kind of enjoys it.

I just struggle with deciding what the consequence is. She doesn’t have a phone and deducting money has helped until she runs out of money. She’s missed netball and dance lessons but doesn’t seem that bothered. Should it be more chores the next day? No TV? No bike? Is that in proportion to attacking someone, pulling a door off its hinges etc?

And can you tell from this that I’m largely dealing with this on my own?

Read The Explosive Child. I think you will find "your people" there, and it gives you some concrete methods of analysing the problem. Something the author says is "children do well if they can". It will help you all (including the hands off dad?) if you reposition this as a child having difficulty doing various things rather than a "difficult child".

If your parents are meddling, you may need to distance yourself a bit.

I like that you’re planning on upping the praising. That’s a great idea. I used to talk about my kids to my husband in a favourable light when they were in earshot, saying how helpful and kind/funny they had been. They thought they were listening in on a private conversation. At dinner I would praise them for something they’d done that day. Really shining love and light on them and wow did that work. I watched them grow into the people I was telling them they were. Self fulfilling prophecy. 🌱

It sounds like a stressful environment at home. As others have said I would contact the school SENCO and your GP for support, and look at reading some parenting books particularly around emotional regulation.

However, whether or not she gets a diagnosis, you need to change something. For a start I would avoid shouting and getting angry - this only escalates and you are asking her to regulate her emotions but if you get angry you aren’t regulating yours….she is struggling, hormones and puberty will be coming into play soon if not already which will make things more difficult!

You mention that sometimes things are an issue, and other times they aren’t. Look up the ‘full cup’ metaphor which explains why sometimes we can cope with things and sometimes we can’t. Have you never had days when everything feels ‘too much’ but other times it feels manageable?

Also I would look at the language you use about your child. You have used a lot ‘bad’ ‘attention seeking’ and also said ‘kiss ass’ - doesn’t sound very loving words and are not words I would ever use to describe my children (I have 3, now all teens). Don’t compare your daughters. Don’t let grandparents make those comments. It sounds like she has got herself stuck into this role in the family and needs help to manage herself in a different way.

When you have 1-1 time with her do you talk about her feelings? Give her a chance to off-load in a calmer way? Not in a ‘sit down and lets talk’ way but while doing something else, for example if I am cooking or driving with my kids they will often tell me things.

Finally pick your battles. Decide what are the non-negotiables, and what could slide. Do some of the things you are fighting over really matter e.g. making the bed??

We do that too (the praising "when they can't hear").

Absolutely also read this and it screamed asd with pda profile.

Look at sensory clothing etc to help with clothing issues.

If she can’t sleep or allow the reading in room but she has to stay in bed and still get up. Many ND people don’t need as much sleep.

Loom at pda strategies such as choices rather than demands.

Get a GP appointment and take what you’ve written here and ask for an appointment with a clinical psychologist.

@Diddlypop Ignore the posters saying you shouldn't tell your parents.
One of the principles of NVR is that you enlist supporters so the family aggression isn't "our dirty little secret".
Also, this is a classic extinction burst. She's being told she's not going to get the result she's had before from her behaviour. She's trying harder to see if it works now.
You did the right thing by giving her space.
Next time you might ring your dad after she's calmed down and prep him with some words about what he's been told and how it's not acceptable.
You do really need to look at ADHD Dude - sorry for the cheesy name!

@drspouse I don’t think many posters says not to tell her parents? Absolutely get wider family to help.
It was the parents calling DD ‘attention seeking’ that was the issue.

That's why I said give the parents a script.
OP you will get pushback for reasonable (but more than at the moment) chores. The first time we asked DS to do his own washing he took 4 hours. Now he does it without prompting.

OP I sympathise with your pov here. In many ways my dd was similar from when her sibling was born age 3 up until about 6 months after finishing puberty. Not quite as extreme but we struggled a lot with her behaviour outside of school, she’s very academic and perfectly behaved at school, also questioned possibly ASD though never took it further, partly because she always seemed a bit standoffish with peers her own age, had friends but felt like she could take or leave them. Around aged 10 (when hormone changes were at their peak) she also diagnosed herself with various things including OCD and autism and seemed to exaggerate what she thought were the symptoms (picked up from school/tv), including freaking out if something was out of place in her room and bolting from a party because it was too loud.

Anyway point of my post is that all this settled down and she’s a very normal 12yo now, seems very happy and generally behaves excellently at home with the odd hormonal moment, and has a great group of friends.

She does have a tendency towards anxiety which seems to have been the root of some of the issues growing up, and some of the more extreme meltdowns were sort of like panic attacks peaking during puberty.

Everyone jumps to special needs these days - when did this become about behaviour generally and nothing to do with educational needs, which it sounds as if your daughter clearly doesn’t have?

I feel that you’re not really listening either. There are a lot of MNers saying that is sounds as though your DD1 is ND and yet you keep coming back to punishing her behaviour and being more strict.

It can be hard to accept that your DC dont respond to “normal” discipline techniques and even harder to accept tgat they may be ND, I do get that. What is coming over clearly though is that you have a little girl who is telling you abd showing you how much she’s struggling and you’re after advice on how to punish her out of it.

What does your DH think about your approach? Is it that he’s laid back and let’s you deal with everything or is it that you’ve decided punishment is the only way and he’s not very supportive of your approach?

I think you need to think of what you’re aiming for here.

Youre not ailing for a child who knows how to feed the DCats. She knows that already.

You’re looking to teach her some self regulation and learn hpw to manage her emotions.

She sounded overwhelmed from school and instead of letting her watch TV, which can really help get some ND DC back on track, you’ve insisted that she does extra jobs and then complained to your DPs when she’s had a meltdown. And that’s what it was. Trashing her room wasn’t “being naughty” she’s telling you, very clearly, that she’s not coping with the demands that you’re making of her and now you want to punish her for this.

Look at what kind of relationship you want with her. My “D”M was very much like you. My DF was quietly supportive in the background. I now barely have a relationship with my “D”M. Thibk about what you want. Is it more important that she feels safe with you, can talk to you, come to you for advice, learn some self regulation and techniques with you or is it more important to you tgat she pretends to be NT and does the chores?

The instinctively saying "no" thing is quite common. "Explosive Child" has some good analogies for this - think of this as needing time to shift gears, or change tracks. The child is moving along on their own track following their own direction and when you ask something it means they have to mentally switch tracks. Whatever you ask comes as a surprise or even a shock and the child's first reaction is to reject it and stay on track. But - at least for some children, and it sounds as if your DC may be one them - you may be able to get her to switch tracks more calmly if you give her extra prcessing time and if you stay very calm and patient yourself. I found "we need to do X, shall we do it now or in 5 minutes?" was very effective. Once my DC had processed the instruction and put it on his inner "to do" list and worked out his own plan he would do it.

Your formal chore plan is often a great idea for this kind of child. It gives her structure and puts her in control - she knows what she needs to do and when she needs to do it. Visual charts and calendars and lists - even a set of pictograms stuck on a chart with velcro that she can pick off as she does each task - can be great as reminders for kids who don't take well to spoken instructions. (My DS had a few of those charts!) You may need to break the chore plan down so that "feed that cats" is "feed the ginger cat" "feed the tabby cat" "fill the water bowl". And maybe go through all the chores with the girls before you start. Another way to do this is to say "that's great, you fed Tiddles, well done! Next time please feed Tiddles and Ginger". Let her build up to geting it all right with praise for what she's doing right rather than jumping on what she has done wrong.

As for consequences for that big kick-off, I wouldn't except for physical aggression or damaging stuff. Everything else she's done is just noise and fuss, let it go. Kicking you needs a consequence. Give her time to calm down and then something not too huge. Oh, and she should apologise. Some kids do this anyway, some don't, getting my DC to apologise was a huge "thing" but it's very important.

Good luck, she sounds like a lovely kid and a handful!

Totally agree with this. I have a child who has a diagnosis of ASD (among other things). School would never have identified it. They acknowledged his anxiety but otherwise the SENCO actually tried to put me off pursuing diagnosis. When the school completed the questionnaires, he was showing clear signs in school. But because he wasn’t disruptive and was meeting academic targets/milestones, he flew below the radar.

I wouldn’t expect a little girl with this profile to be flagged as possibly ND unless the teacher had a particular level of knowledge - and understanding of home behaviours and how those were contrasting with what was happening in school. But I also agree I’d be getting her assessed - and I’d look for an assessment for ASD and ADHD, personally, based on what you say about her early years.

@ThisCatCanHop we had a very similar experience and school tried to put us off getting an assessment too. DC2 was very well behaved in Primary and achieved although nowhere near their full potential.

@BunnyRuddington snap! The behaviour at home from reception to about Year 3 was off the charts and he has a very spiky profile but as he “wasn’t showing need” in school (apparently soiling yourself daily in KS1 doesn’t equate to showing need), we got nowhere until we had a formal diagnosis.