Teen daughter and male youth leader…

[FeatherGold]

My daughter (year 12, now 17) volunteers at a youth club for kids with SEN. She absolutely loves it but is also hoping to get a good reference for future uni applications etc. She’s been doing this for around 2 years.

One of the group leaders (let’s call him Dave) is around 45 and is well known as a charismatic but slightly ‘mad’ figure - in that the kids all seem to love him, but he doesn’t do anything by the book. He has no regard for admin or ‘procedures’, but he’s full of energy and ideas and gets the kids doing stuff they would never have thought possible. You get the picture.

I’m worried because he messages my daughter directly on her phone, and given his position as a youth leader and the age difference, it feels very inappropriate. He’ll ask her how her exams went - stuff like that - but most recently, suggested they meet for a drink to discuss an idea he has as a project for the kids.

I’m glad she’s telling me these things and she just laughs it off as ‘It’s just Dave, everyone knows he forgets the rules and just gets carried away with ideas’. She also has no intention of meeting him alone and gives him factual answers - nothing more.

How do I deal with this? He’s so careless in his actions that part of me thinks it is just a sort of disregard for conventional rules. I’d hate to cause a fuss around someone who is considered an inspirational figure at the club. But I’m also deeply uncomfortable about him messaging my daughter. It just feels wrong.

I should add that if I raised the issue or reported him, my daughter would be furious. She loves the club, is hopeful of getting a great reference, and she would see it as a huge betrayal of trust.

@Shetlandscould you link to any scientific research, please? My understanding was that all that “Gift of Fear” stuff was discredited.

And even if he is well intentioned he must be really stupid to risk breaking rules like this ? So either way not someone who should be in a position of trust.

I'm so sorry you suffered at the hands of a monster. I hope you are doing OK now.
I know monsters hide behind good works makes it easier to access victims sadly. Makes me so cross though when one gets reported and someone gives the whole spiel of they are good upstanding citizens when we know different.

85% of paedophile are known to the person and liked and loved by the young person, I would say to him that your daughter doesn't know you are having a word but if he texts her again or asks her out you will contact the police and if he tells your daughter you will contact the police, also say any thing else happens you will speak to the committee or whoever is in.charge, your daughter will thank you when she is older, better than when she's older she says mum you did nothing, and he bloody well knows what he's doing, poor creepy Dave bless him doesn't realise what he's doing, poor creepy Dave will be arrested and investigated if he carries on as I can promise you he's done this before

Technically as she works with him he needs to be able to contact her and meeting to discuss or arrange an activity would be reasonable. Obviously suggesting drinks is not and if she hadn’t already responded I’d be sure she stressed that she was underage so couldn’t go for drinks and her mum wasn’t okay with her meeting with him outside of the club setting. Just basically stress the age and that she tells her mum everything if he asks anything else along those lines. Also if he messages directly occasionally respond in the group chat with a “thanks for asking Dave, yes exams all went great.” Obviously keep an eye on it and if he clearly oversteps then report him. Alternatively rock up for drinks with her as she’s only 17 and see how he reacts to your being there.

This

This. Dave is taking the piss big time. Your daughter is able to navigate this it seems but the vulnerable children in the group may not. If he is this confused about the very clear policies what else is he confused about.

Great that your daughter has been able to tell you, Dave may also be messaging other attendees that can’t tell their parents.

i would contact the local Designated Safeguarding Officer and discuss it over with them.

Have to agree with this. If he is in this position he will be well aware of the fact this is at the very least inappropriate. Don't assume you would get vibes from someone doing wrong - evidence points to the opposite being true.

I would get in touch with Dave myself and say to him that you are incomfortable with him messaging her privately and having drinks, but you would be happy to come along to the drinks alongside your daughter to avoid any confusion that might look bad for him as you would like to protect everyones interests here including his.

She will only need a reference from college/6th form to apply to uni

Completely non-scientific reply (sorry), but this really interests me so I picked up on your comment.

I think The Gift of Fear book itself has been debunked because it was very victim blaming (“the first time a woman is hit she’s a victim, the second time she’s a volunteer” etc). I think the evidence base also says that we tend to fear the unknown so fear is often a manifestation of our internal biases rather than an accurate assessment of risk. This explains why people are sometimes scared of youths hanging round on a street corner or the man walking down the road with facial tattoos and piercing, despite all of them posing no risk, while in contrast they have no fear of the OAP on the bus stop who might nonetheless have a history of violence.

However, all that said, I have been physically assaulted several times in my life, including once by a partner. In all of those cases I had an early feeling something wasn’t right and I overrode that feeling because I didn’t want to “judge a book by its cover”, should “give someone a chance” etc. I think this happens to women far more than men and it’s to our detriment. These days I very much listen to my instincts and I can think of several occasions where it’s kept me safe.

I don’t want women to walk round in a perpetual state of fear. I go running in the dark for example because the odds of a random stranger attacking me are way lower than me suffering sexual harassment on a night out or even shopping in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon. Women should be empowered to take freedom where they can, but with that comes recognising the risks. Instincts are not infallible and often wrong but if they keep you safe they’re a good place to start IMO. Just wondered what you thought?

This is why they get away with it. My D of E instructor was very nice, charismatic and very, very friendly. Single guy I in his 50s, I knew his sister first. I did my award and went to university and he said ‘keep in touch all of you’ and we all gave him our details. All 3 of us in that group got perverted long letters about how much he fancied us (individually) and what we wanted to do to us. We were good friends and told each other and reported him and yes he was not ‘just Dave’ he was Dave who did this to every 16/17 year old girl. It needs reporting.

This is an excellent learning moment for your daughter.

She knows that Dave's behaviour is over the line and if it's so careless then before long someone will pick up on it and the whole thing could fall apart. What would happen to these kids then? And what happens to the quality of her reference if it's for a place that couldn't adhere to safeguarding policies?

If he's so careless in this respect what else is he messing up?

This man has behaved inappropriately, your daughter knows it and so do you. She is prepared to ignore this most probably because people who behave the way he is are often charasmatic and are able to fool people with their charm. You seem prepared to ignore it for fear of upsetting your daughter and worry about a reference.
This man is working with young volunteers and vulnerable teens. He will not be singling out your daughter, he will be the same with others. Safeguarding is core to running this type of club and he knows it and does not care.
Are you prepared to wait until he is sexually inappropriate with your daughter or younger children? When that happens your daughter could find herself guilty by association or find herself in a vulnerable situation.
if I was another parent I would be sickened that you know he is breaking rules and if my child was harmed I would not forgive you for not raising this through the appropriate channels in a timely fashion

I've been trying to find a short video interview I've seen on MN a couple of times but I can't track it down. It's with a female social worker who talks about how, during an early lecture when she was training, the lecturer looked around the lecture theatre and announced that there were abusers sitting among the students and none of them would be able to identify them. There are people who qualify as social workers, youth workers, nursery nurses, teachers, sports coaches and care workers in order to gain access to vulnerable children and young people. Everyone has to be under suspicion at all times and everyone should understand that. No one should be considered exempt from the rules because of their zany or fun or eccentric nature. That is a great cover, as OP has sussed, for an abuser.

In your shoes, OP, I'd want to contact the safeguarding lead for the organisation and ask, in complete confidence, whether they'd take a look at Dave. Or failing that, once your DD has moved on, make a formal complaint. Your daughter is sussed and has you as a strong, supportive back-up, but a lot of the young people involved won't have that stability and good judgment in their lives, and it's the most vulnerable who need to be looked out for.

The update on the timeline makes it worse and it reads like he is grooming her. Gaining trust when she was 15 but waiting until 16 to start private messaging and showing concern.

I think this should be reported.

Don’t worry about uni reference- that is written by her teachers and she can still include her volunteering experiences in her statement.

Safeguarding isn't just about protecting the kids, it's also about protecting the adults, which is why Dave's actions seem a unwise. Contact the trustees and report it to them you could always do it anonymously

If he's messaging your DD, he will be messaging other girls in the group. If he's asked her for a drink, he will be asking others the same q until one of them says yes. You might want to ask your DD to quietly ask the other girls if they're getting messages from him too.

This is how these men operate, and it's why they get away with it. When you said it started when your DD turned 16, I just thought 'bingo.' Bided his time until she hit age of consent. The thing about these situations is that there is so often convenient doubt, and people don't want to say something in case they're wrong, so say nothing. The men are often on something of a pedestal so no-one wants to believe it of them. It's just his personality, which conveniently is such that it's easy for people to tell themselves that he doesn't mean to cross a clear boundary, he just got carried away.

He's a 45 year old man asking a teenage girl out for a drink on her own.
I've only ever known one type of man of that age who behaves that way.

I would be contacting the organisation about it (I think someone suggested it earlier on).

Lisa Muggeridge.
She got a lot of threats and intimidation. I think she had to leave her job and come off social media. Mentioning predators and safeguarding out loud can be risky.

When I was a volunteer scout leader we discussed things as a group, either in person or via email. I would never have individually messaged one of the young leaders or asked to meet with them individually. This isn't right.

The issue is that safeguarding structures apply to people who are creepy and to people who are not.

I can’t allow Fred to follow different rules because I’ve known him years and he isn’t the least bit creepy.

I got ‘that’s just Bill’, last time I complained about a tactile man. I don’t give a fuck if he’s tactile. I’m not and I don’t want to be touched and patted and squeezed by a man I’ve just met while I’m at work.

This frightens me.

Thank goodness your daughter has her head screwed on but others may not and is he “being a bit mad and inappropriate” with any vulnerable young people?

I think you’ve got no choice but to raise this with their person in charge of safeguarding - they must have one.

I have a SEN child and would want someone to raise this stuff if they knew of anything inappropriate.

and isn't that convenient for Bill, who now gets to grope female staff in plain sight while other people shrug it off and say well what can you do

I try this route - Mum says to remind you I'm 17 so drinking in pubs is out. ie My parents aware for your messaging and I'm reminding you I'm 17.

Though I'd also be looking to see if there were other volunteering oppotunties in area - and any other meeting with him warm him off - but I'd be wanting her out of there so he can't escalate.

I'd also raise concerns when she has left if you feel you can't do it before - a lot of poor behavior hides behind charismatic boundary pushing behavior. The other option is he a wildly neive 45 year old who is leaving himself open to serious alligations in future you need to have someone higher up point this out to him.

My DS has volunteered since Y12 and has loved it and got so much out of it but there are rules both sides and if people were over stepping with him I'd be deeply concerned and want to step in.