Teen daughter and male youth leader…

[FeatherGold]

My daughter (year 12, now 17) volunteers at a youth club for kids with SEN. She absolutely loves it but is also hoping to get a good reference for future uni applications etc. She’s been doing this for around 2 years.

One of the group leaders (let’s call him Dave) is around 45 and is well known as a charismatic but slightly ‘mad’ figure - in that the kids all seem to love him, but he doesn’t do anything by the book. He has no regard for admin or ‘procedures’, but he’s full of energy and ideas and gets the kids doing stuff they would never have thought possible. You get the picture.

I’m worried because he messages my daughter directly on her phone, and given his position as a youth leader and the age difference, it feels very inappropriate. He’ll ask her how her exams went - stuff like that - but most recently, suggested they meet for a drink to discuss an idea he has as a project for the kids.

I’m glad she’s telling me these things and she just laughs it off as ‘It’s just Dave, everyone knows he forgets the rules and just gets carried away with ideas’. She also has no intention of meeting him alone and gives him factual answers - nothing more.

How do I deal with this? He’s so careless in his actions that part of me thinks it is just a sort of disregard for conventional rules. I’d hate to cause a fuss around someone who is considered an inspirational figure at the club. But I’m also deeply uncomfortable about him messaging my daughter. It just feels wrong.

I should add that if I raised the issue or reported him, my daughter would be furious. She loves the club, is hopeful of getting a great reference, and she would see it as a huge betrayal of trust.

I think this would be a good idea - as a DSL myself I've read section 21 & 22 this morning twice, and by my reading Dave is not in a position of trust in respect to DD, so has done nothing "wrong", BUT a 45 year old man thinking its OK to start contacting a 17 year old and ask them out for a drink, is grim, and I have concerns that he is a position of trust over youngsters.

Some things to consider-

Dave is totally innocent of everything but forgetting to follow procedures. He is still putting himself and YP in danger by teaching them that it’s ok to act as he has. They are vulnerable to the next predator who comes along.

Dave is totally innocent of everything but forgetting to follow procedures. But as time goes on he gets even more interested in himself and even less interested in safeguarding and begins to offend. The boundaries are already broken.

Ways to tackle it-
work with your daughter. Explain about safeguarding and ask her how you can work together to protect Dave and the others involved- scenario one would be a good one to use to explain the need. She can then mention to Dave that she read somewhere that ‘leaders aren’t allowed to message YP individually, so had they better add mum (or another leader) to the chat?’

Dave should, and probably does, know better. He is pushing boundaries.

Thank you everyone, you’ve really helped me to realise I’m not being paranoid and that Dave is massively overstepping boundaries. But also that the situation is not clear cut and there’s lots of fuzziness.

I’m just so surprised there is seemingly no proper legal framework to protect volunteers (who are also kids) from predatory behaviour. This seems ridiculous - and I’m going to try and look into it further.

Well, there is, surely? Any safeguarding policies will apply to young volunteers as well as “clients”.

And I do wish people would stop going on about “creepy vibes” and “spider senses”.Partly because they are bullshit. But mostly because this is about rules and policies, not Woo.

@FeatherGold

I have in the course of the morning has a look at our general national policy and the scouts who I am also involved with.

There are differing approaches as my group is disabilities and it’s not uncommon for parents or older siblings to attend with the same disability but both have sections covering adults safety and welfare which I had a feeling they did.

I would ask for their policy which may lead to a question as to why and then you have a road into a discussion with either the safeguarding lead (who could be Dave ) or Dave.

He needs to understand as mentioned that his behaviour is setting a bad example to the children he cares for and if he is a good guy that alone should ring a bell it certainly would for me.

I think you have approached this very fairly and evenly so I don’t see how anyone could have a problem with you asking about their policies.

You could position it to your DD as helping Dave out

...maybe he doesn't realise he's putting himself in compromising positions.
....someone else could take advantage of that.

And also the PP point of him making this kind of relationship acceptable, which other predators can take advantage of once a young person is seen out with an older person.

Your DD has her head screwed on (compliment her!) but others may not and if she is kind and compassionate she will want to help Dave protect himself as well as protecting other young people from thinking these kinds of relationships are OK.

Dave knows what he's doing.
He'll have a lot of autonomy running such a group
Also. Your daughter doesn't need a reference from him for university applications, it's not how it works

Not according to @YourAzureEagle who wrote (and thanks for alerting me to this):

There is a lot of added complexities from the legal standpoint. Reading the Sexual Offences Act 2003 Dave would not be considered to be in a "position of trust" over OPs DD, in fact Dave AND OPs DD are both jointly considered to be in a position of trust over the club members, she is considered by the act to be in an "informal position of trust".

It seems like rather a grey area so I want to find out more.

Thank you for this. I’ll certainly try and find out more.

I agree it is unhelpful as unfortunately some people see men that like kids as weird and predatory. Me being fully aware that some men are weird and predatory.

I can take a brave man to stand up and be a role model for kids. I was once in my 30’s asked to step in and be farther xmas at a party for disadvantaged kids only because I am CRB to the hilt. I had some vile things said to me as “jokes” by friends. while my mum cried as she was so proud of me for helping out.

It sometimes not easy but it’s worth it but why Dave and all Dave’s needs to sort themselves out, read the room and get with the times.

Dave is at best a well-intentioned fool, and at worst a predator.

Even if he’s harmless himself, the Dave’s of this world erode the consistent application of the safeguarding practices that allow us to prevent the real predators from accessing the vulnerable.

Dave is setting unsafe safeguarding standards for under-18 DD to follow, potentially getting her in trouble if she pursues a career in working with the vulnerable because she’s not working to best practice.

His ‘mad’ approach is more than irresponsible for himself; it’s actively damaging to others. And that’s assuming that he’s not a predator and just a fool.

If this were my DD and I was worried about how she’d react if I intervened, I’d be having those conversations with her and ensuring she meets always in a public place and tells Dave that you know where she is. That way you can at least keep her safe until she leaves and has her reference.

Whether the vulnerable people or other under-age volunteers Dave works with are safe is another question and one she/you might like to think about.

This

He has no regard for admin or ‘procedures’,

That’s all you need to know.

So Dave started messaging your daughter at legal consent age, out of the group chat?
and now she’s nearly 18 he is asking about meeting for drinks??
Daves a predator & he needs reporting

I think it's a bit of a grey area. Your daughter works, at the club, albeit in a voluntary capacity. Bosses have to be able to contact staff directly even if they are 17

i don’t think it’s an issue that he might need to contact her directly to discuss her volunteering shifts. But he isn’t doing that. He’s messaging to chat about non-work stuff like her exams and he’s now messaged her to ask her out for a drink. A 45-year-old man shouldn’t be asking a teenage volunteer he supervises out for a drink.

I couldn’t be more anti woo if I tried but I disagree that creepy vibes are woo. We have evolved to sense danger when it isn’t glaringly obvious. We feel uncomfortable sometimes but can’t explain why. These subtle senses have ensured our survival and we shouldn’t ignore them. People like Savile gave a lot of people the creeps despite his jolly charity worker facade. It’s real and scientifically valid.

Yeah But he's not contacting her about the club, ,it's a softly softly way of messaging. It is creepy

OP's daughter doesn't owe anything to Dave, she doesn't need to 'protect him' or 'help him' as other posters have suggested.

There is always a reason not to take these things further - that is why seriously dangerous men get away with what they do.

There are always things like: "I didn't like to rock the boat", "It would have upset my DD/son if I had opened my mouth", "I did not want to alienate my child", "The man involved has a certain indirect power over her (reference)" etc. etc.

It is how it works.

Your DD clearly has her head screwed on, but teenage heads can be turned by flattery and attention. I do not envy you getting things right here. Rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Are you able to research his history a bit?

She's 17 she's essentially in a job of course her boss isn't going to talk through you!

Get your DD out of that situation. Please. This was me 12 years ago, ultimately i was assaulted, once it started it went on for months, it has scarred me! My parents and other leaders did nothing before, during or after! (Despite them 'highly suspecting') Speaking from my own experiences.. youth groups, churches etc. Are not as 'saintly' as they're made out to be!

Whilst she may be furious I’d be even more furious as a mother if you didn’t report this. What if something happens to a child? An under age child?! Cmon you cannot sweep this under the rug. You know of his behaviour and I think you now have a duty of care to report this. Could you live with yourself if something happened?

He may not be creepy but not all creeps are creepy... I know that doesn't make sense. But just because he may not look at type doesn't mean that he isn't. People mask all the time he could be a thoroughly nice bloke equally he could be a predator. Your daughter may have got the cut of his cloth but another young girl may not. So always report if he is a thoroughly nice bloke he will understand.