Teen daughter and male youth leader…

[FeatherGold]

My daughter (year 12, now 17) volunteers at a youth club for kids with SEN. She absolutely loves it but is also hoping to get a good reference for future uni applications etc. She’s been doing this for around 2 years.

One of the group leaders (let’s call him Dave) is around 45 and is well known as a charismatic but slightly ‘mad’ figure - in that the kids all seem to love him, but he doesn’t do anything by the book. He has no regard for admin or ‘procedures’, but he’s full of energy and ideas and gets the kids doing stuff they would never have thought possible. You get the picture.

I’m worried because he messages my daughter directly on her phone, and given his position as a youth leader and the age difference, it feels very inappropriate. He’ll ask her how her exams went - stuff like that - but most recently, suggested they meet for a drink to discuss an idea he has as a project for the kids.

I’m glad she’s telling me these things and she just laughs it off as ‘It’s just Dave, everyone knows he forgets the rules and just gets carried away with ideas’. She also has no intention of meeting him alone and gives him factual answers - nothing more.

How do I deal with this? He’s so careless in his actions that part of me thinks it is just a sort of disregard for conventional rules. I’d hate to cause a fuss around someone who is considered an inspirational figure at the club. But I’m also deeply uncomfortable about him messaging my daughter. It just feels wrong.

I should add that if I raised the issue or reported him, my daughter would be furious. She loves the club, is hopeful of getting a great reference, and she would see it as a huge betrayal of trust.

Absolutely the worst possible approach is to talk to Dave directly or 'have a quiet word'.

it is not for you to decide if Dave is guilt of abuse or just bad practice. You report to the safeguarding officer and they decide.

@FeatherGold sorry but you're being rediculous! It is straightforward, You report it!
You asked for advice, you've been given the correct advice multiple times, told of personal experiences, heard from people in that line of work and are still actively choosing to ignore it/delay it, therefore POTENTIALLY putting your daughter and other young people at risk, all for you own selfish 'I dont wanna upset anyone' bollocks, it's not our job as parents to be our kids friends, it's our job to protect.. even if it upsets them!
Report it, if it's innocent and Dave has done nothing wrong, you apologise to dd and explain your reasoning, if it's not innocent and somethings wrong it can be stopped before it's too late!

I do NOT have a relationship (NC) with my parents because I was not protected in a situation like this 12 years ago! Do not let that be you with your dd.

I can understand your concern about your relationship with your daughter but there is a greater responsibility here.Your daughter communicated…there may be others who are taken in and don’t. This may be grooming pattern. You have a responsibility to report your concerns and then once passed on the DSO or LADO will take it from there. It will all be confidential. If there is nothing to worry about when they investigate and all is well, other than a warning about inappropriate behaviour. He will know he shouldn’t be on one to one but is ignoring that. Red flag. Whether a volunteer or paid the action should be the same. Like others on here I am experienced as a DSO and this needs sorting out asap.

It’s both depressing and shocking that with all our knowledge of predators and all our awareness of safeguarding and all the well publicized scandals and abuses, there are still people who think like this.

One of the key roles of safeguarding is prevention. ‘Dave’ does not have to have done anything criminal to be reported. You don’t need to wait for a child to be abused. You do not need the full facts. You just need to have suspicions based on his behaviour. And a paid member of staff working with children who breaks the rules, chats one on one on social media with 17 year old volunteers and invites them for drinks alone, is doing plenty enough to raise suspicions. As pp has said, this is the sort of situation used in RL safeguarding training where the correct answer is to report. It’s not for DD or OP to decide if he is guilty,,it is their job to report it and let the safeguarding professionals make the decision on what they need to do.

DD is a volunteer and bound by safeguarding obligations. This is a learning, growing up moment for her. If she is unable to take this responsibility, OP needs to step up and report. Which she has now said she will do. Well done OP. Doing the right thing is often not easy, and often causes discomfort. And its still the right thing to do.

I also want to address comments like ‘OP’s daughter knows Dave well’. And ‘he doesn’t have a creepy vibe’.

As an example of how predators and paedophiles don’t have ‘creeepy’ vibes and you can’t spot them simply by knowing them well, I have a child protection social worker friend. Her and her child protection team social workers, and colleagues working in a children’s home, were blind-sided when their colleague, at the time working in a children’s home, was convicted and imprisoned for having child sex abuse images.

If two teams of heavily trained child protection specialists had no idea their friend and colleague had a sexual interest in children, then no-one can tell.

As pp said, predators operate by first grooming the adults into liking and trusting them. That’s how they access victims.

Life isn’t a movie. Predators aren’t accompanied by a creepy soundtrack. They don’t look weird or odd. They look like that bloke you like.

It’s a tough one because it sounds like your DD is handling this well but I do worry for more vulnerable kids with nobody out there.

Whilst I’m sure he is doing a good job, he needs to follow the rules. He should be having meetings at pubs about ideas with his colleagues- not the young people - and he should then organise a formal meeting at the club with another responsible adult if he then needs to inform the young people or get them to do a brainstorm.

He might not be a creep - but regardless he is putting young people and children at risk - whether he does anything to them or not, it can easily send out the wrong signals to another child that is maybe more vulnerable- and that could be his downfall eventually.

Maybe what you could do is gather information as a parent. It’s hard because you don’t want to seem like you are meddling - but I would probably connect with a leader or board member and ask them what’s appropriate- get a sense of their thoughts on Dave without giving away too much. And decide if you want to discourage your DD from the club (she can get her reference first) or sit back and trust that she can handle it - but she is still young - I’ve seen 23 year olds get hurt by these types and not abuse or anything - just from the emotional buy-in some of them might have.

My Safegaurding alarm is sounding.
You simply can't ignore the rules when dealing with children. This man sounds like trouble to me.
Sounds like your dd is sensible enough but she is still young. You need to protect her.

I don’t think DD is handling it well. She should have shut down any personal WhatsApp messaging as soon as it started.

I would pop in on an evening at the YC when your daughter is not attending and ask him not to message your daughter in this way and tell him not to tell your daughter you've been in and why.
I would then tell the boss that you have spoken to her/his volunteer and about what.
This approach will safeguard your daughter I believe.
His social life should not be with the kids he works.

You and your DD and the whole org have been groomed by Crazy Dave. Thats their MO - to be likeble, to gain trust of the who eco-system (org/parents/colleagues/friends) - before they start overstepping.

Its boiling the frog. Your DD is in deeper than you and is also the victim here that needs safeguarding by her own DM as clearly the org and even more groomed.

You dont need your gut here - he has FACTUALLY overstepped.

The relationship with your DD will be fine - show her this thread.

Youneed to know that she is so far groomed over the last 2 years that she is not being rational or following procedures. You were on the cusp with that also but pleased you posted here and have decided to approch LADO.

Well done.

OP, have you spoken with the organisers today?

You have had multiple people sharing their experiences with groomers like Dave.

If you don't, if you prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, say it's better not to do anything in case it upsets your daughter ...

Then he has successfully groomed YOU.

I don't understand what rule he is breaking.?Surely he and your daughter are work colleagues? I don't see a safeguarding issue at all 🤔

FairFatand Forty
Have you read the whole thread?

These “wacky” persona people, like Jimmy Saville, get away with horrific stuff because others think “it’s just their way and there’s no harm in it.”

A 45yr old man in a position of power over a girl should NOT be inviting her out for a one-on-one drink to discuss anything.

I would speak to him personally and make it clear he’s to leave her alone, as well as speak to his supervisor about the inappropriate texts. There’s no reason for him to be contacting her outside of the volunteering role she does.

Trust your daughter, she’ll tell you if there’s anything worrying her about Dave. If she’s telling you about his messages you can bet she’ll keep talking to you. It would be a betrayal of her trust to make a complaint against this man, something she may not easily forgive. Think of your relationship with your daughter because that is what is at risk here. Dave sounds harmless enough to me, and your daughter is old enough that he would not face any repercussions if something did happen between them. But the damage you’ll have done to the relationship between you and your daughter might make you feel like you’re serving a life sentence.

Is it just me or do others see the incels and paedo apologists flock on to these types of threads daily....throw doubt - so that they can continue their Crazy Dave personas.

There isnt one organisation or safe guarding lead that would:

1. minimise it
2. maniplulate you to worry about losing your DD trust
3. tell you to speak to him directly.

As per EVERY protocol - he has overstepped, it requires reporting by you and investiagtion by others.

Compare it to reporting a suspicious bag on a train:

1. Dont minimise it - it could be nothing - it could be everything
2. Any discomfort with initially upsetting anyone is far outweighted by risk
3. Never go to directly to the bag

Glad I'm not the only one whose mind went to Jimmy Savile.

I remember on a few occasions aged late teens to early 20s being flattered that someone much older than me seemed to like talking to me and be interested in my point of view and want to go for a drink with me. This happened a number of times.

Looking back, there was only one case where the older person's interest in me wasn't sexual/creepy. In that case, I was 25 and had at least some life experience that wasn't from school or university, we were both Brits abroad, out of our comfort zone and in need of new friends, and (crucially) she was a 40 year old woman and single mother. Even then I felt the relationship between us was somewhat unbalanced for various reasons (she was a lot wealthier than me as well as a lot older), but I certainly wasn't being groomed or manipulated and we are still in touch now.

Every other time someone 15+ years older than me expressed an interest in being friends with young me, it was a man and he turned out not to have good intentions.

Now I'm nearly 40 and I would consider a 17 year old to be a child. Someone who could even be my own child. That doesn't mean I wouldn't find their conversation interesting or their company entertaining, but unless they were my niece/nephew/godchild or their parent had asked me to give them career advice or something like that, the idea of inviting them out for a drink would not even cross my mind. And I imagine that would be even more the case for my husband and a 17 year old girl, because he would not want there to be any kind of misunderstanding.

At best, Dave has absolutely no concept of what kind of behaviour is appropriate when working with young people, and that makes him completely unsuitable for this role, however nice he may be.

And the "at best" scenario probably isn't the accurate one here.

Have you read the thread? He is staff and she is a child volunteer. He is in a position of power. He sends her messages and wants to take her for a drink to discuss ideas. No organisation would allow this type of contact. It will be part of their code of conduct and in their Safeguarding Policy. Safeguarding is everyone’s business and this should be flagged up to the DSO.

It sounds like your daughter is managing it. Take credit for a thoroughly sensible child who is also communicating with you and clearly trusts you. Don’t spoil that trust by interfering but by all means keep tabs which is what you are doing.

I think you also need to consider whether there has been a recent change in his behaviour, or whether he's always done things like message her personally etc.

At 15 this would be much more of an issue (to me), but at 17, she's nearly an adult and they are probably starting to give her more responsibility and treat her more like an adult - as she will be one within less than a year. She's also been with the organisation for a while, and Dave is someone a bit familiar to her, which is a bit different to if this was one of her first interactions with him.
The meeting up for a drink may seem a bit odd - but in context, was this a 'lets go for an alcoholic drink, just the two if us' or was it a 'we can plan this out a bit more, but lets meet somewhere public for a coffee and I'll see if another volunteer might be available to join us'?
Generally safeguarding advises to avoid being 1:1, so arranging to meet in public, rather than be in a 1:1 situation would be preferable.

Discuss it with her more - ask what she'd do if she did feel uncomfortable, what she's do if there was another young volunteer who said Dave had said that, ask if she known who to talk to in the organisation to raise a complaint, or just to chat to for some advice, and then ask what she thinks she would like to do about it?
It may be that she then recognises whether this is strange, and she decided she'd like to report something, or discuss it at the next meeting, or it might be she says 'oh we had a discussion about this already, and I said as I'll be 18 by Christmas I wanted to start being involved more as an adult, and Dave has offered to mentor me, so us meeting up somewhere public to discuss my plans was something we mentioned in the meeting'.

The fact that she's discussing this with you is definitely a good sign, and as she's nearly an adult in an organisation working with children, she will probably have had, or be due to have soon, some safeguarding training. If she hasn't had it yet, she could maybe ask some questions when she does have it about 'what does that mean for young volunteers like me?' when they're talking about avoiding being 1:1, and the usual 'no contact outside usual channels' rules most places have.

OP I hope you will take the advice of the many knowledgeable and experienced people here

to any lurkers, please also listen to those who know what they are talking about- not those who are basically enabling abusers by suggesting this man has done nothing wrong, or that OP's DD is nearly an adult, or that staying friends with your DD short term trumps safeguarding the DD and the vulnerable young people at the club

honestly there are some posts on this thread that are so dangerous I was tempted to ask MNHQ to delete them

safeguarding is everyone's responsibility and its not for OP or her DD to decide if this man is or is not dangerous- ALL they have to do is report what they know and let an expert decide

agree also with the PP who said this can be a valuable learning experience for the DD

good luck OP and please do the simple- and right- thing

Can’t believe some of the replies on here. Probably ignorance because of not being involved in Safeguarding. The law regarding Safeguarding of children and how things are dealt with is very clear. . Anyone under 18 is regarded as a child in law. Any organisation involving under 18’s has strict guidelines and policies to follow… in law. He is ignoring those and will know what they arebut chooses to ignore them. That should be a huge red flag to anyone.

I really do despair when I am.reading some of the comments here. The OP has been given a great deal of advice from.people.who understand the legal obligations of adults and under 18s within organisations and the potential for grooming. Despite that there are still people posting such ill informed views and minimising what is happening. It isn't any surprise that safeguarding failures are still happening when people willfully try to explain away worrying behaviour and discourage others from following clear and important procedures. I really hope some of these posters never have a loved one groomed and exploited then find out there was a trail of worrying behaviour that no-one acted upon.

The bit that gets my Spidey senses tingling is the comment about references. I do wonder if this has been said/suggested by Dave? No uni would ask for a reference from a volunteer role. They only know about it as it's something you talk about in your personal statement and then expand on more when interviewed. In fact, in general there really is little proof a YP has done what they say on their personal statement.

To me, I do wonder if maybe it's been suggested she'll get a "good" reference so that allows him to break protocol and to keep someone on his side for fear of a bad reference/jeopardising uni applications. This is a coercive control and fits the profile of someone abusing their power.

I might be totally reading that wrong and it could be OP/her daughter have wrongly assumed a reference would be given by the organisation, but it's worth asking that here to get a better idea.