Teen daughter and male youth leader…

[FeatherGold]

My daughter (year 12, now 17) volunteers at a youth club for kids with SEN. She absolutely loves it but is also hoping to get a good reference for future uni applications etc. She’s been doing this for around 2 years.

One of the group leaders (let’s call him Dave) is around 45 and is well known as a charismatic but slightly ‘mad’ figure - in that the kids all seem to love him, but he doesn’t do anything by the book. He has no regard for admin or ‘procedures’, but he’s full of energy and ideas and gets the kids doing stuff they would never have thought possible. You get the picture.

I’m worried because he messages my daughter directly on her phone, and given his position as a youth leader and the age difference, it feels very inappropriate. He’ll ask her how her exams went - stuff like that - but most recently, suggested they meet for a drink to discuss an idea he has as a project for the kids.

I’m glad she’s telling me these things and she just laughs it off as ‘It’s just Dave, everyone knows he forgets the rules and just gets carried away with ideas’. She also has no intention of meeting him alone and gives him factual answers - nothing more.

How do I deal with this? He’s so careless in his actions that part of me thinks it is just a sort of disregard for conventional rules. I’d hate to cause a fuss around someone who is considered an inspirational figure at the club. But I’m also deeply uncomfortable about him messaging my daughter. It just feels wrong.

I should add that if I raised the issue or reported him, my daughter would be furious. She loves the club, is hopeful of getting a great reference, and she would see it as a huge betrayal of trust.

Your daughter sounds clever and aware which is brilliant, but the other volunteers and children accessing might be more vulnerable and that would worry me. Could you put a concern in elsewhere so that he is kept an eye on. In schools (I’m a teacher) we are told to report things that make us uneasy no matter how small they seem because they might contribute to a bigger picture.

I think I would report to whoever has a safeguarding role at the youth club. Ultimately it is their responsibility to safeguard him as well as the children and he can get himself into a lot of trouble getting 'carried away' (open himself to accusations from parents and he won't have a leg to stand on). It's up to the safeguarding lead to manage him, warn him, remove him if he continues. I would speak to this person and say that you don't want it to be known it came from you, due to potentially harming your relationship with your daughter. They should be able to deal with it anonymously and even if Dave figures out it's you, it would be a massive red flag if he let on to your daughter. It should be able to be dealt with in a 'warning' way.

I was in a similar position when I was 16. I politely declined any meet up. You could always go with her or perhaps a brother. Dave wouldn’t be able to say anything and would hopefully get the hint.

Adding that you’ve come along because you wouldn’t want inappropriate gossip which could lead to a bad reputation (him)!

For example: he can still have mad ideas but met up as a group to discuss them. Discuss them at the club. Have a set time for meetings which several people attend, not 1:1. And definitely no direct messaging. I'm not sure Dave has grasped how vulnerable he is making HIMSELF here by 1:1 meetings and messages.

It's difficult to day if he is just innocently naive or a creep, either way, not so good. I'm a male teacher and scout leader, in our scout group we have young leaders in the 17/18 bracket (sixth formers if you will)

We communicate via phone in a group chat, no one to one messaging, there is at least 4 adults in the loop. We do planning meetings down the pub, but again, its always more than one adult / more than one young leader.

I have come across creeps who have been caught out, but I've also come across people like your Dave, who are genuine, often don't follow rules, and put themselves at risk on many levels.

Sounds like your daughter is suitably savvy to keep herself safe, which is good.

I do think there is a good chance its just him being rather foolish - but its also a concern for him, and for the club, if their safeguarding training is so poor he doesn't realise it.

Well done daughter for telling you. Can you halve an open discussion and suggest to daughter that ideas should be discussed with everyone, not just her, and to message Dave back this?

Well done also to your daughter for volunteering at this club.

17 is a tricky age. In many ways they’re responsible at this age, able to coach sports teams, get jobs, about to leave hone if going to uni etc, but they’re also still our babies, and are under 18 (thinks back to mixing with older people freely when I was a teen in 80s, and no one battered an eyelid. How times change).

The issue isn’t if Dave is being “Creepy “
The issue is that “Dave” is completely disregarding safeguarding policies and he either needs further training or he just doesn’t care!
Dave is helping vulnerable children but if he can’t follow the most basic rules of safeguarding, then is he actually in the right role?
These children have SEN and need someone who is there doing what needs to be done, to keep everyone safe.
Being a 45 year old jolly volunteer does not make you exempt from safeguarding

Thanks everyone for your very helpful and insightful responses.

On one level, Dave’s behaviour is so risky and blatant - messaging my daughter, asking her out for a drink - that it makes me think he must just be oblivious to the rules of his own club. But then on the other hand, how can he be - in this day and age, with stuff all over the news and so on - when everyone automatically knows it’s inappropriate - it’s just really weird.

I’m not so much worried for my daughter who I know won’t engage with this … but I just have a niggling feeling I should act on behalf of more vulnerable people - and for his own sake! Though as I’ve said, my daughter wants to ignore it so this just makes it really difficult. I will talk to her again about mentioning it herself to the safeguarding lead.

The safeguarding policy does not specifically mention volunteers but is written in view of the young people it caters for - many my daughter’s age. I assume it will apply to any young person though (no contact via personal phones etc etc)

A thought. Maybe bide your time and write a letter after she leaves , expressing your concerns (unless things escalated)?

You don't know how many people lovely jolly old enthusiastic Dave is messaging asking to meet up with at the pub 🤑
And for the other posters- it doesn't matter that her daughter is 17- there is a safeguarding expectation to 18 years old for those in a position of trust. You need to report this.
The man is either an idiot who needs further training - or he's a creepy predator. As you said, you dont know about other children who may be more vulnerable and not as sussed as your daughter.

I've run Into a few Daves - of course nothing he has done, or is suggesting is illegal, if that's is all it is (ie a drink and plan some activities), but it would go clearly against safeguarding recommendations and common sense.

Dave is potentially, quite possibly, just a really nice chap, doing his best for the club and genuinely just wants to sit outside a coffee shop with your DD and go through ideas.

But he's putting himself at huge risk doing so. Also he is risking the club if he disregards all known rules and regulations, he could get it shut down.

I very sadly had to let a TA go in my role as deputy head for similar reasons, they were not a bad person, in fact I think they cared very deeply about the children, but they couldn't do the boundaries that are required these days.

I would leave it until after your DD has left, she knows what's what, then decide whether to do anything or not.

How safeguarding applies legally in this case is more complicated - as she is a volunteer she is not considered in quite the same way as a member of the club - and the law would see it as the same situation as her being 17 and working in Tescos.

Safeguarding still applies, as it does to every situation, but Dave may quite possibly not be considered in a position of trust in the same was as a Teacher or Dr towards a volunteer as a member.

Him suggesting meeting up to do planning, is unwise sure, but in of itself, in this context doesn't breach and rules or laws.

The OPs daughter is taking the right line and going with her instincts, good for her!

I think you need to trust your spidery senses. If he breaks boundaries with your daughter how does anyone know he’s not breaking boundaries with the Sen kids he is responsible for.

When your daughter has got her place at uni
why not send him an email thanking him for looking after your daughter and for the wonderful references blah blah

and just tell him straight that following safeguarding rules is something to do for his own safety and that that you hope he takes this as a friendly reminder

If the safeguarding policy doesn't cover under 18 volunteers then it probably should do! But I think it's not unreasonable for him to have her contact details and her to have his to communicate about the club. E.g. if she's unwell, if the rota changes, emergency closure etc. Meeting up 1:1 for a drink is really inappropriate though. There must be other people on the team surely who should be included?? DH, who used to be involved with youth work, would never have suggested this even to 18/19yo female helpers (he had quite a few students helping out), it was always a team meeting.

There is a lot of added complexities from the legal standpoint. Reading the Sexual Offences Act 2003 Dave would not be considered to be in a "position of trust" over OPs DD, in fact Dave AND OPs DD are both jointly considered to be in a position of trust over the club members, she is considered by the act to be in an "informal position of trust".

The rest of the safeguarding issues covering OPs DD fall under the Health & Safety at Work act, and Dave likely has obligations to OPs DD and certainly to the club members.

It is important to understand that Dave suggesting a 1 to 1 planning meeting down the pup is not in any way illegal - but it lays Dave wide open and is something he would be well advised not to do.

Exactly this.
I'm an Explorer Scout leader. Face would be reprimanded for this, with a view to asking him to step down if he continued. No one is being safeguarded in this situation.

Being "mad" is a smokescreen either for laziness or something more sinister, and completely inappropriate for someone in Dave's position.

Even if he is doing this in good faith, he is encouraging vulnerable young people to break boundaries that someone looking to abuse would want to break. He is setting them up for abuse.

Report him, he is a risk to the young people he works with.

This is interesting … and also concerning. My daughter was just 15 when she started volunteering and I just assumed a safeguarding policy would cover her. I’m astounded if there isn’t one!
Dave started messaging her when she was 16… just things like ‘how are you?’ When she was off sick or ‘How did your exams go?’ I thought it was inappropriate but was glad my daughter was keeping me informed. Now I feel like he’s crossed a big line with the drink suggestion - she’s only just 17.
She was also in a group chat to start with but he started messaging her out of the chat. Not sure if he’s done so with other volunteers.

Sorry, I meant to quote @YourAzureEagle

Dave thinks the rules don't apply to him. Dave is hiding in plain sight. Dave is a transgressor. You need to talk to the LADO (Local area district officer) if you're in England. I would start with an anonymous call to check out some general concerns. Dave has Savile vibes.

None of it sounds good, as your daughter is over 16 and a volunteer, whether Dave is considered to be in a position of trust is somewhat muddled, section 21 & 22 of the Sexual Offences act are like a word soup, but your daughter and Dave hold a position of trust over the members.

Assuming that Dave is not in a position of trust, then the drink suggestion etc is dodgy, but not breaching any trust. I feel that him contacting her outside of the group context and the drink suggestion sound predatory to me to be honest, maybe not illegal in you daughters case, but evidence of a personality I'd sooner avoid and not have working with young people.

The group must have a safeguarding policy, but it might not cover volunteers over 16 in the same way as members, volunteers should be subject to that policy and covered also by heath and safety.

The more you say, the more dodgy Dave sounds...

I've come across jolly, madcap, rule-breaking men (coaches, volunteers etc) while working in education and they all gave me the creeps. No doubt your daughter will come across more men like Dave in her life so the most important thing is make sure she's armed with all the best responses and strategies to deal with them. It's great she's being open with you so you know exactly what sordid game he's playing and help her to manage the situation.