I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Sometimes it's pants being a ND parent, my advice would be go to your Dr explain the not sleeping etc, they can help by offering medication awful as that may sound if it helps so be it! and they will push forward getting a diagnoses. I found looking at the behaviour and looking for patterns, it maybe over stimulation and quick removal before things escalated really helped, having boundaries with consequences as well as we are doing this now then we will do that so as an example if 3 Yr old is watching TV it would be we are watching this until such and such time then you can watch your programme use a timer to mark down the time and praise when they follow the instruction. I used a timer a lot for consequences too so it would be time out I would start the egg timer and if they played up I would put it on the side until they were doing the right thing before starting it again ( hope that makes sense) always with a thank you for making the right choice I found it helped See what support is local, when mine were ittle it was PALs they do a lot of activities for ND children and parents as well as the other siblings. There used to be a course called Early Birds if you can get on that (ask school SENcO) it will give you some support but please know you are not alone and there are people that have been through this and don't judge you, keep going with the routines and try some of the things people have suggested that you think might help but they won't be a quick fix but you will get there big hugs

If she is overstimulated all day that could very well be affecting her sleep.

My DD sees a sleep specialist and I was told no screens an hour before bed and bed time routine should be about 30 minutes. So in that 30 minutes bath and story as you described is perfect.

I hope you are both able to find some relief.

Every Saturday or Sunday can you take the 3 year old out for the day and dad has the eldest for the day. Just so the 3 year old isn't suffering all the time. Maybe see a different GP and say that you and younger dd are suffering because of older dd.

In which case I’d agree with your suspicions around autism. She is probably holding it together at school - masking - as girls do, and then all hell breaks loose at home. My daughter is autistic, just diagnosed - although we have always known. CAMHS never came good for us so we did resort to a private diagnosis. She is low support needs but she can explain to me now why she needs quiet time, can’t cope with big long days out unless she can plan for it - also she says that while she loves surprises she hates spontaneity and winging it - or changing plans. So for example if we go out and I say before hand we’ll have Nando’s for lunch - then that’s what she’s got in her head. If we get there and it’s really busy and has a huge wait, we might say that we’ll go elsewhere and that will really stress her. However if I phrase it as ‘well aim to go to Nando’s but we might need to be flexible’, that she can cope with ie planning for things not going to plan. We had a hard time at some points over the years - not to the same extent as you but there were certainly times I was going through the motions of being her mother without enjoying it very much

Hi OP. I'm so sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I don't want to read and run but hopefully some of the advice on this thread will help you and your daughter.

My brother was exactly like this and was an 80's child so never diagnosed and refuses to believe he has any issues so just struggles through life.

I was your 3 year old child. Had to suffer and learn to cope with such a different sibling. All my parents attention went to my brother as they were so desperate for help but didn't get any.

I just wanted to say that it's nice you can have 121 time with your younger daughter and I really wish my parents had done this for me. Hopefully in time with support you can have the same with both children. Good luck OP., stay strong and keep fighting for support for your family.

Hello, have you heard of PDA? (Pathological demand avoidance)

it’s a profile of autism. I’m not saying she has it but I know quite a lot about pda. It might be worth looking it up and joining a pda support group as lots of parents on there going through the same. Sending hugs

Look into the NHS right to choose providers in your area as you might be able to find a provider with a shorter waiting list and definitely push your GP. I had to secretly record my son before anyone would believe us because he presents so differently at school. He does something called “Masking” when he’s at school and your daughter sounds as if she’s doing a similar thing. Have a look into therapeutic parenting as well. It isn’t permissive parenting, it’s just doing stuff differently. it’s hard to do sometimes but it makes a difference. There’s a lady called Sarah Naish who I would definitely recommend for reading stuff. Good luck OP and lots of hugs from someone who gets it x

I would try stopping screens and see if that helps. Also unless she doesn't eat then try pure food only.

I love this sort of flippant advice because how does anyone genuinely expect to entertain a neurodivergent 5 year old with zero screen time?! And meet all the needs of a sibling, complete household tasks, cooking, cleaning at the same time? Parenting expectations are insane, akin to telling people to just STFU and live off £1400 a month when they dare complain about COL.

In order for kids to play screen free they need toys, craft/art supplies, space, and usually supervision or someone else to play with. That's already ton of prerequisites in terms of privilege. If your home isn't large enough to have garden space or storage for toys them it's harder to entertain them screen free. If you don't have enough income to buy them Legos, dollhouses, art supplies etc then it's harder to occupy them screen free. If you don't have the luxury of hours of free time to sit down with them and craft or play make-believe then it's harder to keep them screen free.

I'm obviously not a proponent of screens but it's wholly unrealistic to place the blame on destructive and malicious behaviour caused by pathological MH issues solely on the parenting decision of giving their kids some sugar or screen time.

I'm just so tired of fighting her. And every day is a battle. Yes everyone is probably right and I don't see the good in her. I'm too busy plastering my 3 year old or hugging her and telling her it's okay.

I'll speak to my husband and take her out for the full day. Either of them. Yes it shouldn't be a competition but when I have no sweets in the house or no tv my 3 year old inevitably loses and it's just not fair. It's shit.

I'll speak to school on Wednesday.

She is on the waiting list for both and I cannot afford private.

I'm so so tired.

I have sent you a private message.

Sounds awful for you and the 3 year old. Do you have any family close like there nan or someone who can take you 3 year old just for like an week to give her an break away from 5 year and you have not got to worry about her getting hurt but even that would only be temp solution. It really sounds like it need sorting now because once your daughter is older and stronger she is going be harder to control also she going get thrown out of school if she acts like that to other children there.

They really don’t. They're far too overstretched to be involved in advice and support for families without big problems where children are at risk, and this idea of ‘respite’ just handed out with no further questions or investigation for such a young child with no official diagnosis is to be honest hopelessly naive at best. The extent of their involvement would probably be offering OP a parenting course.

All of this. I can’t read any more responses of punishments and consequences. They do not work on some ND children. My 3rd child was like this. It got so bad as he got older my oh wanted to put him in care. It wasn’t happening! But we did talk about separating houses just to keep the others safe. He also masked at school and was the ‘perfect’ child.

Reward charts never worked because he would mask perfection and then it has to come out. Look up the coke bottle effect. Punishments didn’t work, it just got that he stopped caring about anything and we ran out of punishments/things to remove.
Over covid I phoned autism services and cried begging them to do something. I was black and blue, so sleep deprived and just not coping. They did some emotional regulation therapy which helped some. Joining an autism group which improved his communication and confidence so much helped even more.
His behaviour was coming from his inability to cope. He had such bad anxiety and low confidence. It was hell for all of us, but worse for him.
It’s been a long road not going to lie. It started when he was very young. He’s 15 now and an amazing young man. Very tactile and affectionate and loving. Still has some struggles, still has sensory issues and struggles with demands and expectations. He’s also a very caring young man who is so good with his younger autistic brother who has shown some similar behaviours. Also very bright, strong and determined.
Keep demands low, keep stimulation low, find what helps her relax/calm. Make up a calm/sensory box. Find ways to help her understand and communicate how she’s feeling. You say if she had told you about the ice cream then you could have fixed it but she couldn’t communicate that in a healthy way. It’s nearly like a panic attack where little things can set them in fight or flight because they don’t have that emotional regulation.Ask your gp to refer you to camhs while you wait on the autism/adhd referral. Join some autism groups, you don’t need a diagnosis for those. Also apply for dla which may help you apply for some therapies. Again you don’t need a diagnosis. If you get it you can also get discounts sometimes into places which help take the sting when you end up just having to leave early.

@icann the waiting times for ASD and ADHD assessments are shocking, but there is a way to get it sooner. There is a scheme on the NHS called Right to Choose. These are private clinics who will do the assessment for the NHS. You need to do your homework to find one close enough for you. Then go back to the GP and ask them to make the referral. I have just gone through the process for my daughter, and the waiting time is 6 to 9 months.
Please feel free to private message me if you want any more information, or need help to find a clinic near you.

@icann as many previous posters have suggested, really looking at her diet could be hugely beneficial to the regulation of her behaviour.

Do try to read through this as a first step, it may resonate.

www.thecabinhongkong.com.hk/blog/food-addiction/child-addicts-dire-reality-sugar-addiction/

Sorry to hear what you are going through. Please look into NVR (Non-Violent Resistance) courses near you. Attended one myself for different behaviour but others on the course had similar stories to yours and the course really helped them.

Wear long sleeves to protect your arms from scratches

How sad to read this suggestion (whilst understanding how it's made).

OP - the situations sounds unbearable for you and your younger DD bei g abused by her elder sister.

I have nothing to add other than keep on with GP/different GP/school. (Go to a different GP or escalate through their complaints procedure)

What is she like if you sit down to play with her one to one?

Try melatonin

Find a group in your area - national autistic society run a lot. Diagnosis is not required as these days it takes so long. There will be other autism mums there.

Agree with splitting up the 3 and 5 year old where possible. Do you have any family that you can draft in on a rota? If not then at least say every Saturday you split up and saturday 1 mum has the 3 year old dad the 5 year old and Saturday 2 vice versa.

Separate them where possible.

Days out = overstimulation. Park, walks, garden. She's five, she's doesn't need the Trafford Centre and ninja warrior.

Cut the junk food.

She hits you?? Get down to eye level, hands on her shoulders, and say very, very sternly : 'you do not hit me!!!'.

You need to mean it. She knows that you don't, because she's been doing it for the past five years with no consequences.

@Lourdes12 she is very focused but only if we follow how she wants.to do it. She has to dictate everything. Which is fine. But if we're.playing imaginary play and I 'get it wrong' she hurts me..

Or it can go the other way and she wants nothing to do with me.

Wear long sleeves to protect your arms from scratches

^
Who's in charge here???

What was she like before the 2nd was born?

We have a 5 year old and 3 year old in our family and it is exactly like this. The parents are lovely and parented with love and care, as you do too, I’m sure. Her school report was wonderful. Impossible behaviour at home. Nothing worked, she was having meltdowns every hour, everyone in the house had visible injuries. They paid for a private assessment and she has now been diagnosed with autism, adhd and pathological demand avoidance.. she has been prescribed melatonin and also propanlol. In 2 weeks there have been marked improvements. Other things that have helped are noise defenders, having the tv off except for carefully selected shows, and the odd family film, a place for her to go when she needs to be alone, because she’s overstimulated, she has a teepee with soft cushions and fairy lights, a low sugar diet. Home is low lit and muted, she is taken out for exercise every day. Her parents never discuss her negatively, although they do challenge her behaviour, zero tolerance of violence and aggression. She is told that she is loved. Things can get better. Honestly.

Sending a child to their bedroom is not a reason to get SS involved. It's a consequence to bad behaviour. It's not abuse to give your child consequences. If you can't learn to behave properly within a social group then you will be excluded. Simple as that. Its been the same since the dawn of time. School does it, society does it (aka prison time). If parents can't teach their kids this lesson then they will learn the harder way when they turn 18.