I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Love this! Totally agree!

DD clearly needs a completely different approach from mom. I completely agree with it sounding like she is overstimulated. Hopefully mom can find one on one time and patience with DD to help find ways to help regulate.

Get an appointment with the school Senco next week with your evidence. Although they don’t see this behaviour, they should support you and your DD . We always did in my school and work together on strategies and extra support.

Hi OP,

I'm really sorry you are going through this. I can hear how exhausted and beaten you are through your words.

Like others have said it's really important to keep going back and back to the GP.

ask for an appt with her class teacher to discuss what's going on. It seems she is masking at school and then releasing it all once home.

See if you can get some support from early help if they do this in your area. They should be able to offer some support and advice.

Sounds like you need a break. Could dad look after both girls for a few hours for you to take some time out??

You’re recommending abuse as a method of ‘curing’ behavioural issues?

I hope you’re not a parent.

I can't individually reply to everyone but I am reading so I'm going to do a mass reply

I dont think she is jealous of the 3 year old. She gets absolutely devastated at the idea of me taking her away to stop her getting hurt. I don't work. So I'm at home with them. I don't favour thr 3 year old. I'm watching them both. If I ask the oldest why she's punched the younger she says she just felt like it. It usually occurs when the younger wants a specific tv show or to make a choice. The older one can't bear to not make the choice.

I am not portraying the 3 year old as angelic but I can't punish her for 3 year old behaviours.

I will retry the sticker chart with more direct behaviours. I do praise her. She ate her breakfast really well today and got a cuddle and a praise and a well done for sharing with her sister at the table. Thirty seconds later she pushed her into the table because 'I felt like it'.

Separate bedrooms

Husband gets home at 6 ish. He takes oldest. Just spends time with her. I take little one to bath, do her story and get her into bed for 7. Oldest comes up at 7 for bath and then story and then bed. She's up and down all night. Screaming, kicking, punching. She pushed me down the last 4 stairs the other day. She's strong.

My younger brother was like this, violent to the extreme, broke all his toys/anything expensive, the amount of injuries we got as kids (all of us) was horrific especially as he got older. Not saying this was right but my mum used to lock him in his room to stop him from hurting everyone with a big stair gate but sometimes it wasn’t possible, we used to barricade ourselves in our rooms too . Social services involved numerous times, just didn’t care. It didn’t get better till older teens, he’s now got a girlfriend and seems happy but I don’t have contact really, still have nightmares as an adult in my 30s ,seems ridiculous really.

No advice just wanted to say sorry you’re in the situation you are, I’d say SS, hopefully they are helpful.

I have a child with a pda disposition and reward charts exacerbated things. He would hand back rewards on principle. Sometimes people refer to pda as “Persistant drive for autonomy” which was true of him. Finding ways to give him some control was important - which isn’t the same as permissive parenting before someone jumps on me.

I have a child with (diagnosed) autism & adhd. Your situation sounds incredibly tough, is there anything like 'Early Help' available where you are? Or a child development clinic?

Not to disagree with anyone or any suggestions:

A completely different bell rang from a very long time ago. A friend's child was 'impossible' they tried all sorts, saw gp, it went on for a really long time (maybe years?). Eventually an ENT consultant worked out they had something lodged far inside their nasal passage which was causing recurring infections, removed it and lot of pus I think, probably antibiotics were involved but I don't remember. The child was transformed.

Could there be a physical illness the gp hasn't spotted?

https://amazesussex.org.uk/ a good website even if you're not in that area.

I wonder if https://www.familylives.org.uk/how-we-can-help/confidential-helpline#cr38546
Would be of any help?

Good luck.

Lots and lots of people start their SEN journeys exactly this way. The "coke bottle effect", desire for autonomy and sensory issues, as well as the poor sleep, are all pretty classic.

Read Ross Green "The Explosive Child" and Naomi Fisher "Changing Our Minds".

Join the "Not Fine in School" Facebook group sooner rather than later - it sounds as if atm she is in a play based curriculum and can hold masking for the length of the school day, this unfortunately often falls apart by Year 2 and either becomes disruption at school or a mental health crash, burnout and school refusal.

Look up resources about autism and adhd in girls, and read about demand avoidance to see if it fits. Read about nervous system activation, dysregulation and the fight and flight response in ND children.

She should get a sticker every time she does it. Not just once/twice. Then you set prizes with the top one being she decides what reward she gets

Don’t do this or you will have SS involved and not because of your child’s behaviour!

Sorry but some of the replies about retaliating or locking her in her room. What the actual? She’s a small child!
The other children won’t “cure” her by hitting back. She needs to learn other ways of communicating. It’s just not that simple.

Also ring cahms. The school can but ime parents get further.

That old chestnut...."no concerns " from the school. Yep, that's the same for my 7yo too. I still get attacked regularly. Apparently he's a lovely wee boy at school, so polite etc. Why can't he be like that for his parents then at home?!

OP you have my sympathies. Apply for DLA in the mean time. Perhaps you could use the money for therapy. Or sensory classes. Get a carer's assessment for you too arranged at your local carer's centre. You need lots of practical support❤️

I feel so sorry for you and family. I hope you can find some help. I feel so sorry for your eldest who is undoubtedly unhappy and being let down with the lack of services. Please take it from someone who suffered at the hands of my ASD brother and was battered daily throughout my childhood to do whatever you need to do to protect your youngest.

I have suffered a lifetime of poor relationships, because violence was normal to me, eating disorders, and trauma which has continued into adulthood as a result of the abuse from my sibling. Do whatever you need to do to keep your three year old from ever being hit again, I beg you.

OP can you afford to put her in with a childminder part of the weekends or some days after school just for a bit of respite? Or can she go to an aunts or grandparents a few hours a week?

You need time away from the constant attacks and so does the 3 year old.

Does she have her own room. Regardless if she goes to sleep at 11pm or not, she needs to be in her room a lot earlier. She needs to be in room from 6pm, in her pjs with some supper. She must stay in the room, put a movie or something on for her but she is to stay in there.

Get some wireless headphones for when she is in the house, and she can play music.

Keep music on in the background in the house, calm classical

keep earplugs in- you can still hear but you will feel less triggered by the shouting and screaming and when she is being abusive.

Try and get your 3 year old away from her. So if you dd is home, send the 3 year old to a grandparents or visa versa.

Wear long sleeves to protect your arms from scratches.

Record her behaviour on your phone, record the injuries, record the events in a diary. All will help when discussing her behaviour with a professional.

If there are any after school clubs etc, put her in as much as possible. Swimming, choir etc.

Ask them to think seriously about whether she's masking. Does she kick off when she comes out of school?

Could you ask your doctor if he will prescribe melatonin. It’s natural but it will help her fall asleep ( it only helps them fall asleep it doesn’t keep them sleeping) it makes a massive difference to children with autism and they have started prescribing it for woman with menopause sleeping problems too I read somewhere.

My daughter has ASD/ADHD/PDA .
Boundaries with a clear consequence are vital.
Never, never, never threaten something that you won't carry out.
It's exhausting at the beginning but in time, if you stick to the boundaries and deliver the consequences things will improve.
Please research The 'Autism/ADHD diet' uts a game changer. Introduce it slowly but firmly offering no other alternatives.
Exercise is vital, every day, rain or shine.
Another tip my paediatrician suggested (that worked like a charm) was that whenever things got really overwhelming, suggest a play in the bath with lots of toys, turn lights off and use lots of glow sticks or make it into a slime bath, the water is really regulating. It will also give the other parent an hour with younger child.

Completely agree with this.

Punishment is not the answer, and will not solve your issues here. No amount of taking away toys, reward charts, consequences etc can punish the neuro diversity out of a child. You need to totally rethink your parenting approach.

Also, give yourself a break. Parenting a child like your DD (and mine) is TOUGH! I don't doubt that you are doing your best.

My advice would be to throw whatever money you have at it. Pay for a private diagnosis, this will get you access to a community paediatrician who can prescribe melatonin for the sleep. Access any and all SEN support you have locally.

Where in the UK are you based?

OMG, this sounds horrific. I’m not surprised you feel so stressed. The fact she doesn’t do it at school suggests she’s capable of controlling her behaviour. What do you do when she bites and hits? Do you give her a time out linked to her age - 5 mins with explanation why you’re doing it? Do you use distraction techniques, e.g. when she kicks off draw her attention to a bird or flower outside? Do you praise her for good behaviour or set her tasks, like ‘who can be the nicest for longest while we’re at the park?’. Sometimes bedtimes aren’t worth battling over. Maybe a compromise and let her look at a book with a lamp on? I wonder if her diet might be a factor. Perhaps cut out any processed food, especially sugar: chocolate, cereal, ice-cream, biscuits, sweets, juice etc. Don’t have them in the house, so she can’t demand them. Try yogurt and fruit for breakfast instead. Only water and milk to drink. Wholemeal bread, pasta, rice etc. See if it makes a difference.

5 year old will be on the receiving end of a nasty surprise once the 3 year old becomes old enough to hit back.

At the point a parent absolutely cannot cope with their child, yes, they can and do. As I say my aunt went through the same and in my work I have supported others through the process. It’s not easy to get, but it is there for those who need it.

Firstly, as a mother to an AuDHD child, big hugs. I know how difficult it can be and that feeling of hopelessness like you're not doing good enough. Please make sure you are also having some time for your own self care too, as it's just as important to ensure you are in a good headspace (this is said with kindness, no offence intended)

Secondly, I disagree with the comments above regarding not punishing/consequences. Yes, you need to introduce boundaries and consequences differently but there 100% needs to be punishment for "bad" behaviour (usually I define as behaviour which hurts others). Yes, you will need to give a bit of "leiway" compared to other neurotypical children but there is no excuse for this type of behaviour - at all. Unless severely autistic etc, but you cannot mask that behaviour when it's at that stage.

For some advice, I'd recommend the following:

1. Limit screen time (I know it's hard as gives you half hour peace, but it does help!)
2. Try to increase time out the house to burn off extra energy
3. Reach out to the doctors to see whether they're able to prescribed some melatonin as a good sleep routine definitely helps! This is a really good thing to do. If not, try magnesium drops.
4. Try to give some time just to your 5yo. See if DH can have 3yo for an hour a day and just focus on her.
5. Limit sugar. My daughter's behaviour has improved 10 folds by stopping all sugar (well, most of it). The only sugar she now gets is from fruit and we only allow that in the morning so she doesn't crash in the afternoon. Cut out cereals and replace with eggs and bacon etc to fill her up etc. A lot of "foods" are full of sugar and putting the body in a constant state of increased cortisol which affects behaviour, especially those with SEN.
6. give her a "space" to calm down (my daughter has a tent with sensory toys etc).

If after all of this you see no improvement, I'd reach out to a health visitor. Someone tried to say they would take 3yo off you, this is not true. They would rather help than throw the book at a child. You're right, she is a concern to her sister and abusive which is why HV will help. I would say, you must be consistent though - if you falter, she will.

Judging by what you've said though, I think she seems to harbour a lot of resentment towards her little sister. It may be that you are also exacerbating this by telling her off. She may feel she doesn't get the same attention (positive) which in turn will make her more aggressive towards you and her. Kids will thrive off attention, good or bad, at that stage. I know it seems like a vicious circle but you may need to take a step back from the 3yo for a short period and dedicate time just for 5yo.

Others keep referencing "masking" however if this behaviour was synonymous with 5yo suspected diagnosis, she would not be able to mask this at school all the time and there would be some evidence in other behaviours (such as aggression but towards herself, or negative emotional responses).

Finally, whilst this is said kindly, I honestly think she sounds as though she knows that her bad behaviour towards you will result in attention. She has built up a resentment towards her sister and if she is not given the time or affection she needs, that relationship will be irreparable.

I really hope you manage to get some advice which resonates with you and helps you in the right direction. You know your child best. Take care xx

Hello - this sounds extremely challenging (understatement). Can understand how you feel like giving up!

i agree with others that she sounds like SEN and maybe some issues relating to autism eg pathological demand avoidance

I haven’t experienced as extreme behaviours as you but my 4 year old deteriorated into a mess 3 months into her preschool (we couldn’t leave the house for 6 weeks). At one point my partner came into the room and I was crying as I’d been trying to get her dressed for 90 mins and she was physically fighting me.

I found a course on SEN parenting for adhd and autism helpful (it was online) and also meant I just didn’t feel so alone.

It’s not okay for gp to shrug you off like that: I wonder if you could go really heavy handed or keep representing. Maybe take someone with you for support or threaten to escalate? As well as waiting list it sounds like she needs to see a psychologist and have some medical assistance with sleep.

in some areas there are SEN charities who have helplines or Facebook groups.

it sounds like it’s not possible to get her out of the house at the moment but if you ever can, would you consider trying a SEN activity group partly so that you can chat to other parents or staff for further ideas and support?

So sorry you are all
Going through this. It can't be easy.

It does sound like the sibling may be an issue for her. Can you and dad take one each out for a nice day.

I think the sticker chart need another go. No set tasks. Just any time she does anything remotely positive, she get a reward.

You really need to praising every little thing. Well done you put your shoes on with no fuss, I am so proud of you etc.