I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

She has to dictate everything.

^

Fine. Normal.

Jam or marmalade, darling? That's her choice. She's five, she's doesn't have the capacity for more.

Oh and I'm not ignoring everyone. I can't reply to all individually

We have one set of grandparents and they are in there 70s. They will take the 3 year old but have declined to take the oldest. She behaves the same there and it's too much for them.

Put her up for private adoption

Hello,

This sounds very stressful and difficult for you.

You said she copes well at school? The first thing I would do then is try and discreetly record her behaviour at home. This sounds like masking to me (I'm a senco). If could be that school is very structured and rigid and the rules are set out for her to see so she feels safe within them. Home may be more relaxed and so she might be feeling untethered.

The sticker chart is a good idea but you need to be REALLY specific with what you expect (like school rules).
We do not bite
We do not hit

When she gets angry and try not to react in a loud way. If you can I would love her out of the environment somewhere calm and tell her calmly that she will stay there for 5 minutes. Set a visual timer and stick to this.

She has big emotions and doesn't know how to handle them.

Start teaching her feeling words. Look at zones of regulation. Her school may well do this. She may need help working out what she feels and how to deal with it.

If parents can't teach their kids this lesson then they will learn the harder way when they turn 18

^
This. It's a huge disservice to the child.

Do you proactively punish the bad behaviour? Not just natural consequences (i.e. no more ice cream if she throws it), nor rewarding good behaviour, nor simply explaining why she can't do something. But proactively enacting a negative consequence/punishment when she misbehaves? (E.g. being taken to a space with no toys or entertainment for a few minutes and only being allowed to leave when she apologises, or anything else that she would find immediately unpleasant and want to avoid. Or if you're in public and she swears or hits, taking her to sit in the car for a few minutes, or going straight home at the very first misbehaviour).

A thing that jumps out from your posts is that you say the routine has been in place for some time and things are the same as always.

I know that feels like you're being consistent or keeping it up, but if it hasn't worked and still isn't doing, it's not a positive thing to tell yourself.

Maybe some new routines, with explanations of expectations, would actually give you a chance to reset. She needs helping to experience some form of success in doing what you're asking her to, or she'll never be motivated to try.

@Lourdes12 she was 2 and a bit when the youngest was born. She was always a sensitive toddler. But the tantrums and the screaming, we just put down to terrible twos and the change of a.new baby. Her baby stage was nothing unusual. I mean she was her first so we have nothing to compare her to.

Ok breathe. It’s hard and getting advice from parents of neurotypical children isn’t going to help. If she has severe autism/adhd that’s why she isn’t sleeping or behaving. She isn’t doing it on purpose. My advice as a parent of a child with sen would be educate yourself. Read up on everything to do with her needs and behaviour. Contact your local childrens centres and ask for help they often have family support workers. Contact sendiass for your area and explain that she is school refusing. Contact the health visitor and the school nursing team. Keep asking for help. It is out there. Look up local sen groups on facebook for your area to meet other families in similar situations. It is hard but it can get better with the right input. I’m a parent of a child with sen too.

Have you read up on pathological demand avoidance ? It’s a profile of autism that’s quite rare but presents how you describe. Essentially the pressure of all the demands of the day build up and they just implode; they may be fine at school but then lose it at home. I hope it isn’t that but worth pushing for an assessment as it might completely change how you respond if this isn’t about ‘bad behaviour’ and actually she’s having a rotten time.

I don't know how to punish her. She has nothing of value. She doesn't have a tablet. Yes we have the tv on but I can't take anything else away from my 3 year old..

When she hits I take her away from the situation but I've always got to keep an eye on the other

I'm failing no matter what I do

Yes, I don't understand why my comment about sending the child to their room has been reported and removed from the thread.

Surely allowing a vulnerable three year old to be attacked is more abusive than sending their sibling to their room, mainly for the younger one's safety? Am I missing something... Do posters really think it's better than the three year old is physically attacked by her sibling instead?

I can sense you are at the end of your tether. The reason I’m posting is because I have a friend who went through all the things you describe and more with her then 8/9 year old. Traditional methods didn’t work (this girl is the absolute opposite of a pushover mum!) but they DID find a way through, and you will too. Her daughter has been diagnosed ASD and possibly ADHD too now but labels aside they found a different way to parent, helped largely by this organisation: https://www.newboldhope.com

Have a look on the website, there are articles you can read for free and webinars etc, courses you can buy. It’s all about families going though what you’re going through and those who have been there and have helpful advice to share. I think that just knowing that you’re not on your own and reading and hearing about things that have worked for others may give you the strength you need to press on and help your daughter and the rest of your precious family too.

Just also to comment on the fact that your daughter isn’t like this at school (retired teacher here) - that’s really common with girls who mask their ASD, it all comes out at home. It can make you feel like you’re the problem but actually it’s that you are the safe space and people. Knowing that might help you see your daughter’s behaviour as an expression of her stress rather than a personal attack. It must feel like that at the moment though, so handhold here for you. Hang in there, it can and will get better with some support - you are a good mum or you wouldn’t be on here asking for help. Take care. Rooting for you.

I didn’t mention social
services @amispeakingintongues ?
Are you quoting the wrong person?
OP you have so much good advice here and we all feel for you. I hope you can find a way forward.

I think the poster wasn't referring to the ones saying sending her to her room it was more the ones telling her to remove all the furniture out and leave just a bed and lock her in for 24 hours or the one saying if she hits then hit her back, if she bites then bite her back, if she spits then slap her face etc.

Obviously no one here can diagnose but this sounds enormously like neurodivergence- and particularly Pathological Demand Avoidance (a subset of autism).

Look at https://www.pdasociety.org.uk If it rings bells, then look up (1) Dr Naomi Fisher (a clinical psychologist who provides very helpful and relatively affordable webinars on many aspects of pda, including low-demand parenting for young children); and (2) Eliza Fricker (https://missingthemark.co.uk ), who has pda herself, has written widely about it and offers extremely insightful one-off one-to-ones for parents online.

You’ll also need to make a real nuisance of yourself with your GP - because you need, need, NEED professional assessment for your daughter. A diagnosis has two main benefits:

1. It makes it easier to access educational support although an EHCP isn’t diagnosis-dependent). While she’s fine-ish at school at the moment, it is - I’m sorry to say - common for problems to appear as the work gets more demanding, other kids’ social skills develop faster and masking becomes harder.
2. You’ll know what you’re dealing with, which makes it a million times easier to put in place appropriate strategies.

When you go to your GP, ask for a referral to a sleep clinic. That can happen independently of any neurodiversity assessment. Your daughter may benefit from melatonin to help her sleep. (Sleep issues are VERY common with children with PDA/ADHD. So, too, incidentally, is a very limited diet and an over reliance on sugar.)

I have a much older PDA-er (who has diagnoses of autism and adhd) and recognise my past in much of what you write. I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong but I do think you are dealing with something that’s almost impossibly hard. “Normal” parenting strategies (sticker charts, rewards, consequences etc) probably won’t work because they’re “demands” and will just further disregulate your daughter. Forget them and find what does work (even if it only works a little). Your way forward is out there. I promise.

My son is like this nothing to do with his diet. changing it won’t help. He has asd with suspected pda profile. Reward charts are useless for some children but there are other ways to award good behaviours. Young children can and do mask at school.

you need support and you can get this without a diagnosis. Portage or early help, push until someone listens/ join a local support group on Facebook for autism/ adhd they will be able to signpost to support in local area.

Things I would focus on is a safe place for both children to play. You have to prevent your youngest from getting hurt. This is hard I know but needs to be done. I block/ remove son from other children if he going to lash out. It means I get hurt but the child doesn’t. Teaching your youngest when to move away. I would decrease the amount of time you are out. My son gets more overwhelmed when we out constantly/ got a lot going on.

we focus on learning about emotions/ what to do when angry. Sensory breaks/ circuits help with the amount of outbreaks.
consequences should be natural consequences. We use books to teach about not hitting/ bitting. Having a calm area to go to when she’s angry/ upset.

look into a carers assessment for some support/ respite. I wouldn’t recommend a childminder when she already overwhelmed with school/ home.

Change your perspective and ignore a lot of the neurotypical parenting advice you're being given here.
Autistic adhd kids don't respond to threats, bribes or rewards. I've brought up 2 of them.
Behaviour is communication.
The world is terrifying and overwhelming for her. Please read up on ways to help reduce sensory overload.
Don't take it personally, it's not personal.
Can you attend another gp and request melatonin? I'm not in the UK so don't know the processes over there but maybe look on Facebook for groups of parents with autistic and adhd kids, you will get a wealth of advice.
Good luck.
Edited to add: the sugar obsession is very common with adhd, my eldest was the same before we medicated her. Stimulants like sugar help with regulation. (Not a scientific explanation 😉).

I feel for you op, my brother had adhd and as a kid he ruined most days out / holidays he was horrible to live with use to be violent and gave my dad a breakdown. It's not as simple as turning their TV off that's a simple answer to a difficult medical issue. You can cut down the level of sugar of course that will help with hyperactivey but it's not going to change her violent behaviour. I hope you get some help op and a relevant diagnosis if that is indeed what the issue is. Hopefully there is different help now as we were taking 30 years ago and it was uncommon then and I just remember going to family therapy sessions a couple of times and ritalin being described which I'll be honest didn't really help he described them making him feel like a zombie and refused to take them as a teen. Really you need someone to come and take her off your hands for a few hours for a rest do you have any family members nearby?

I think you need to find something. There are numerous other things you can do which are helpful too (routines, avoiding overstimulation, praise, naming emotions etc), but on a very, very basic level, bad behaviour still absolutely needs to be punished.

I understand what you’re saying about space and money. But as someone who grew up without any screens (we couldn’t afford a TV in 1970s), books and paper/crayons can be a solution. Books take up v little space compared to toys and can be v calming as they allow the child to go at their own pace, compared to screens, where the pace is dictated by the screen. Books are v cheap second hand. Cheap paper and crayons don’t take up much space either. Plus, playing games together, like noughts and crosses, “hangman”, card games etc. Also, getting them to help out. Young kids like lots of attention. So getting them to help with household tasks, like making their bed, folding laundry, making food, tidying up etc means they’re doing things with you and get a sense of pride/feel grown up in helping. They have to help tidy etc at school.

If there are any after school clubs etc, put her in as much as possible. Swimming, choir etc.

I disagree. She sounds like she'd do better with calming downtime rather than loads of activity.

By the way if she does have pda then going harder on discipline and things like reward charts will NOT work and only make things worse

pda is an Anxiety driven need for control

I recommend you look up pda dad on YouTube he explains it well, his daughter has it and might be some help to you

OP do you document everything? Your black eye, your 3yo’s bite marks? Do take photos and keep a diary of behaviours. It may help when you go back to the GP to show them the severity.

I’m so sorry that you’re all struggling. I have ADHD and I know over the years my reactions to things (non-violent, shutting down) have confused and upset people but I couldn’t help those reactions, it’s taken me till nearly 40 to try and manage them and I still struggle. I imagine a five year old can’t manage her behaviour either, and I’m not sure severe punishment will help. I know that being told off for being ‘rude’ and whatever else has never ‘fixed’ me. Only truly understanding myself helped me to understand it and work on it with support.

I know that may not help, I just wanted to show you her perspective. I truly hope you get some support. People on here have given some good advice.

Keep pushing. I know you don’t want to, I know it’s hard. Sending you love. Xx