I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Exactly this!

The school needs to be named on the EHCP. Any school needs to accept the child and say they can meet need

Presently, OP says, that the school has no concerns. Lets say by miracle, she received the EHCP next week (although none has been applied for yet), her current school would say it can meet need. Therefore she will remain at her current school until that position changes.

@icann we’ve had a very positive experience with Psychiatry UK for treatment and NHS have agreed to shared care too. If you’d like more info please feel free to PM me.

FFS she’s five !! And she’s struggling. You really do need to educate yourself about ND conditions if you’re going to post without causing offence.

You haven't a clue what being disabled is or isn't @oakleaffy.

If she’s ND, the internal turmoil is because she doesn’t understand her feelings. She won’t be able articulate - even internally - as you suggest here because she simply doesn’t understand the connection between actions and consequences, cause and effect. Punishment means nothing because she doesn’t understand why her actions have led to the point where it’s administered. She’s not closing herself off from her family, she’s closing herself off from a world she can’t make sense of until she develops her own coping mechanism to deal with it. Hence the extreme behaviour.

@Rosscameasdoody I'm sure that's true for some ND people but there is variety across conditions. Also I probably made it a bit too articulate as a necessary part of writing it down (you can be feeling that way without being able to name the feelings).

But it was just a suggestion based on some personal experience. Obviously I don't know how OP's DD is actually feeling!

I'm just thinking about 5 and 3 in terms of development. Its very young to be having complex conversations and bargaining about where they want to be and what they want to do maybe?
Children live in the moment and can flit between various imaginary and real scenarios in seconds.

Horrible day. She bit my 3 year old on the face when I was making them lunch. The 3 year old was doing nothing wrong. She was colouring her book. The tv was off. The house was silent. I asked her why. She said she felt like it. What do I do with that? No I didn't yell but I did take the 3 year old upstairs with me so she could have a cuddle and I could properly look. She's now shouting and screaming and carrying on

Oh and my finger is broken. My 5 year old broke my finger. Yesterday I felt so optimistic and like we had a plan. Today I just feel broken

I'm so sorry OP I can't imagine what you are going through with this

Have you self referred to social services? Shown them the videos and photos of the injuries to your youngest?

@icann

This is such an awful situation.

Were you able to give consideration to an initial phone consultation with the psychologist in Sheffield?

https://relatingpsychology.com/therapy-in-sheffield/

I don't want you to continue to go through this without support.

I'm doing it with my husband now. I wanted to do it together. It sounds so weird but we've been taking photos of what she does for ages. So I have about 6 months of injuries to me, my husband and of course my little one. She's broken the skin on my little ones face and I'm trying so so hard to not be angry and not to show it to her but I am angry. There was no reason. And if there was I certainly didn't see it. We have deliberately stayed in today. She was just colouring her book.

I'm going to ring the psychology place now. It must have got lost in the sea of replies. I'm very grateful for all the replies. I must have missed that one. She's fallen asleep. She's screamed herself to sleep. She didn't sleep till 4 am this morning.

I'm aware how horrible this sounds but she is going to school Wednesday. I can't. I need a break. I have emailed school and we are seeing her year 1 teacher tomorrow and I'm going to show them the videos of her behaviour and to see what they can do. I'm not trying to shame her. But school need to know. We need help

Sorry I’ve probably come across as a bit lecture headed !! I really don’t mean to be, but some of the posts here are awful - horrible comments from posters who clearly have no clue as to what ND conditions really mean and just see it as an excuse for bad behaviour. I was a disability outreach worker in a past life and the ignorance around ND conditions and pre conceived ideas continue to infuriate me, so I’ve had a couple of attempts at educating as to what the ASD spectrum is and have tried to explain masking as best I can - for the ‘they can behave if they have to’ crowd. Sorry if I caused offence.

Safety first, always. Remove either her or if that will just escalate things further then you drop what you're doing and remove you and the child. You just repeat if you hurt us we don't want to be near you. Don't say things like "we will go do something MORE fun" as autistic children especially struggle with delaying gratification and this can cause further dysregulation. You just want her to know that the consequence of hurting you is that you will not be there.

Get some oral stim toys. When she's calm you tell if she want to bite she can bite these. Have a little practice, it won't come easily to her as it's a habit she has to build and habit building for autistic people can be hard so you will have to do a lot of redirecting.

You need to be of the mindset that you might not be able to stop her biting just yet as she isn't ready to stop, but your focus needs to be on redirecting.

I'm sure if you're going to diagnostic route part of that may be a sensory profile, but it will focus on the senses and how they're used to regulate.

Hitting doesn't solve her issues, but when she hits or throws she's using her vestibular and proprioceptive senses, so it's about finding things that meet her sensory needs but also redirecting her before she becomes too dysregulated. We use soft velcro balls at a target and weighted blankets and every one in the house models saying "I need space" whenever they are frustrated and we do not get upset if that comes out as a shout or a whisper or a whine, we honour the message as its a need that has been communicated better than throwing or biting or hitting. You can say to her "we do not hit. Say I need space".

There are also self defence parenting classes you can enroll to which show when it's appropriate to restrain and how to restrain safely.

If she can't manage that then you schedule regular space breaks and you encourage sensory aids. You won't win 100% of the time but you can manage dysregulation as best you can before it escalates.

Others have recommended the explosive child and it's a very good read.

Also this isn't essential but it might help to keep a short diary for a couple of weeks of what has happened before, during, and after these outbursts she's having.

Triggers are not always obvious. Sometimes it just feels like it comes out of nowhere or seems like they're just being nasty for no reason.

I think a diary will help identify if there are any patterns.

For example if it's when she's playing with her sister and they're doing structured play and her sister deviates from the plan and that causes her to lash out and the next day they're doing something else and your 3 year old is doing her thing but it's not how the 5 year old wants to do it, it's evidencing a need for structure and routine but the trigger is surrounding play so it will help the professionals involved in her care tailor therapies around managing changes to expectations. You might have to pay for these therapies but that's one of the things DLA is good for. The diary will also be good to document what you're doing and if things work or if they don't work so you don't just keep retreading old water.

Having a short diary will also help if you include her sleep because you can use it if you need proof of delayed sleep phase disorder and need to advocate for a sleep study for her so they don't just brush it off as "one of those autistic quirks".

Both you and her deserve quality sleep often and regularly. I really do think until they've tackled this then the expectation for her to be regulated is just too much. I would not expect an adult who gets less sleep than they should every night to be their best selves, so I definitely wouldn't expect it of a young developing mind.

Ouch!

sensoryneeds.co.uk/collections/chewelry here's a chewellery stockist. DD had a massive oral fixation and we had to get one of the necklaces around this age.

Referral done. I've never spent so much time on the phone. I'm preparing for this meeting with the teacher tomorrow. Any tips?

Also I need to know how I don't show my anger? Because I am. I'm sorry. I'm human. She's taken a chunk out of her sisters face. She starts nursery on Wednesday. I'm so so angry. And I'm trying not to be. She's still asleep. But when she wakes she's going to immediately ask me if I'm cross. She always does. And I don't want to lie to her but if I tell her I am She's going to meltdown. And if I lie I feel like I'm saying no I'm not at all cross you bit your sister, please do it again.

I've bought some of the oral toys. She is a biter

icann I just want to say that the tone of your posts is different, even if you're all going through the same shit. You sound less worn down, more up for the fight of helping your daughters. I think that's a good change.

When she wakes would telling her you're sad first help? "I'm sad, because you're so angry and hurt. I'm sad because your little sister is hurt. I'm sad because I want you to be happy."

And then maybe "I love you, but yes, I'm angry that DD2 is hurt. It's hard not to be angry sometimes."

I don't know. Maybe that wouldn't be good. It's so hard to know the right thing to do. Maybe some version of that would be easier for her to cope with.

You could answer her question with a question like "have you done something I should be cross at?

That will give her the chance to reflect.

If she gets upset then you can still validate her sadness while maintaining its not ok to hit.

"I can see you're sad", sometimes that's all you need to say. You just need to recognise what she's feeling. You don't need to make it better, but when she's upset is not a teaching moment. It won't be taken the right way.

You can also get down on her level and make something up like "when I was little my mummy told me not to bite my sister too and I was so sad because I had hurt my sister and disappointed my mum"

If she goes into full meltdown mode and you are really cross you just say "I need space, you need space, let's both have 5 minutes" and just walk off.

And I don't want to lie to her but if I tell her I am She's going to meltdown

^

But she'll have a meltdown anyway??

Honestly op I get that you're in a terrible situation, but it seems like you're falling over yourself not to react to your violent five year old??

She bites her sister's face, so you take the 3 year old upstairs and give her a bunch of excuses??

Am I missing something?

Have you ever reacted to your five year old in a non positive way? Because it just sounds like you're reinforcing her behaviour

Just be open as you have here maybe write some bullet points to help you concentrate
Don't be surprised If they suggest parenting courses ,whilst these might not teach you anything you don't already know ,it can be helpful to get help ,they may refer you to early help
Do you think she needs an EHCP?,discuss that with them if you do.

she's going to immediately ask me if I'm cross. She always does

^

Tell the truth. Yes, I am incredibly angry and cross because you hurt your sister.

I'm trying so so hard to not be angry and not to show it to her but I am angry

^

Ain't working for you op. She's demonstrated that in her behaviour. You need a change of tactic.

Top tips with school is to be brutally honest, also discuss the trouble you have getting her there.