Disciplining 2 year old

[Roxyrocks]

Hi all,

I'm currently completely at my wits end with my 2 1/2 year old.

She's lashing out frequently- hitting, pinching and pulling (main targets are her 6mo brother and me)

When we tell her off and explain She's hurting people she just laughs and says we're making her sad if we shout at her

Just before she lashes out she sometimes verbalises the thought ie "I hurt mummy, I hurt brother"

Really struggling to know how to put an end to the behaviour as so far she has found all efforts hilarious. I've tried shouting, calmly explaining and time out

Thanks

@ColonelDax you clearly don't understand the difference between meta studies and studies so I'll leave your obvious lack of knowledge there and hope others see it for what it is, ignorance.

Exactly this.

The problem with these kind of threads is they fill up with holier than thou parents telling everyone what NOT to do, but all their suggestions of what they should do are either:

A. Nonsense and don't work

B. Incredibly time intensive

C. Hugely bandwidth intensive

And that's the problem. Parents need solutions that work AND are practical for busy (potentially single) parents or those with multiple kids who simply don't have the time or bandwidth to go for the 'gentle explanation' processes which by the admission of those who promote them, take forever and often don't work anyway.

Smacking is sub-optimal of course, but done in a measured way not in anger, it's quick and it works and it doesn't generate any negative outcomes.

The alternative in reality ends up with parents who 'would never hit my child' but simply don't have the time or bandwidth to do any other approaches and so end up simply tolerating bad or even dangerous behaviour. We have all seen it.

@ColonelDax completely agree 100%

You'd be surprised what I understand. Thanks for the condescension. 🙄

Please can you explain your point for the benefit of others on the thread, or it might just look like you haven't got an answer so are hiding behind semi technical terms in the hopes that nobody will dig any deeper and just take your word for it?

Smacking is sub-optimal of course, but done in a measured way not in anger, it's quick and it works and it doesn't generate any negative outcomes.

It is suboptimal. Hitting a child in a calculating way is NOT better than in anger (although studies seem to show it's slightly less damaging). It is quick. It's doesn't work. And it does generate negative outcomes.

There are lots of things that work. Read 1,2,3, Magic, or How to Talk So Kids Will Listen. Many efficient, good, caring, optimal ways to cope.

What did you do as time out? We had a travel cot in the downstairs. Only thing that worked for us (quickly) was to immediately put her in there and walk away. She could still see us as the downstairs is open plan. I only had to do it once or twice before she got the message about hitting. This was in about 2006, so could be old fashioned now, not sure.

The evidence of everyone's own eyes shows it does work and has worked perfectly well for millennia, but ok.

'slightly less damaging'.

Hang on, you've changed your tune after being challenged. It's almost as if your assertions aren't as well evidenced as you initially claimed.

A little light reading for the people who think smacking is fine...

1. United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). (2006). General comment no. 8: The right of the child to protection from corporal punishment and other cruel or degrading forms of punishment. Geneva, Switzerland: The United Nations. Retrieved from tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/treatybodyexternal/Download.aspx?symbolno=CRC%2fC%2fGC%2f8&Lang=en
2. Rowland, A., Gerry, F., & Stanton, M. (2017). Physical punishment of children: Time to end the defence of reasonable chastisement in the UK, USA and Australia. The International Journal of Children's Rights, 25 (1), 165–195.
3. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). (2014). Hidden in plain sight: A statistical analysis of violence against children . New York: The United Nations. Retrieved from www.unicef.org/publications/index_74865.html
4. Durrant, J., Stewart-Tufescu, A., Ateah, C., Holden, G., Ahmed, R., Jones, A. et al. (2020). Addressing punitive violence against children in Australia, Japan and the Philippines. Journal of Pacific Rim Psychology, 14, e19, 1–11.
5. Poulsen, A. (2019). Corporal punishment of children in the home in Australia: A review of the research reveals the need for data and knowledge. Children Australia, 44(3), 110–120.
6. Relationships Australia. (2017). Online survey: Corporal punishment. Retrieved from www.relationships.org.au/what-we-do/research/online-survey/ april-2017-corporal-punishment
7. Rhodes, A. (2018). Child behaviour: How are Australian parents responding. Parkville, Victoria: Royal Children's Hospital Melbourne. Retrieved from www.rchpoll.org.au/polls/child-behaviour-how-are-australian-parents-responding
8. Dodd, C. (2011). Ending corporal punishment of children: A handbook for working with and within religious communities . Nottingham, UK: Russell Press. Retrieved from resourcecentre.savethechildren.net/node/4420/pdf/4420.pdf
9. Gershoff, E. T., Goodman, G. S., Miller-Perrin, C. L., Holden, G. W., Jackson, Y., & Kazdin, A. E. (2018). The strength of causal evidence against physical punishment of children and its implications for parents, psychologists, and policymakers. American Psychologist, 73(5), 626–638.

10. Alampay, L. P., Godwin, J., Lansford, J. E., Bombi, A. S., Bornstein, M. H., Chang, L. et al. (2017). Severity and justness do not moderate the relation between corporal punishment and negative child outcomes: A multicultural and longitudinal study. International Journal of Behavioral Development, 41(4), 491–502. 11. Flouri, E., & Midouhas, E. (2017). Environmental adversity and children’s early trajectories of problem behavior: The role of harsh parental discipline. Journal of Family Psychology, 31(2), 234–243. 12. Maneta, E. K., White, M., & Mezzacappa, E. (2017). Parent-child aggression, adult-partner violence, and child outcomes: A prospective, population-based study. Child Abuse & Neglect, 68, 1–10. 13. Piché, G., Huýnh, C., Clément, M-È., & Durrant, J. E. (2016). Predicting externalizing and prosocial behaviors in children from parental use of corporal punishment. Infant and Child Development. 26(4), 1–18. 14. Ma, J., & Grogan-Kaylor, A. (2017). Longitudinal associations of neighborhood collective efficacy and maternal corporal punishment with behavior problems in early childhood. Developmental Psychology, 53(6), 1027–1041. 15. MacKenzie, M. J., Nicklas, E., Brooks-Gunn, J., & Waldfogel, J. (2015). Spanking and children’s externalizing behavior across the first decade of life: Evidence for transactional processes. Journal of Youth and Adolescence, 44(3), 658–669. 16. Olson, S. L., Choe, D. E., & Sameroff, A. J. (2017). Trajectories of child externalizing problems between ages 3 and 10 years: Contributions of children’s early effortful control, theory of mind, and parenting experiences. Development and Psychopathology, 29(4), 1333–1351. 17. Heekes, S.-L., Kruger, C. B., Lester, S. N., & Ward, C. L. (2020). A systematic review of corporal punishment in schools: Global prevalence and correlates. Trauma, Violence, & Abuse. doi:10.1177/1524838020925787 18. Durrant, J., & Ensom, R. (2017). Twenty-five years of physical punishment research: What have we learned? Journal of Korean Academic Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 28(1), 20–24. 19. Gershoff, E. T., & Grogan-Kaylor, A. (2016). Spanking and child outcomes: Old controversies and new meta-analyses. Family Psychology, 30 (4), 453–469. 20. Gershoff, E. T., Sattler, K. M., & Ansari, A. (2018) Strengthening causal estimates for links between spanking and children’s externalizing behavior problems. Psychological Science, 29(1), 110–120. 21. Okuzono, S., Fujiwara, T., Kato, T., & Kawachi, I. (2017). Spanking and subsequent behavioral problems in toddlers: A propensity score-matched, prospective study in Japan. Child Abuse & Neglect, 69, 62–71. 22. Zulauf, C. A., Sokolovsky, A. W., Grabell, A. S., & Olson, S. L. (2018). Early risk pathways to physical versus relational peer aggression: The interplay of externalizing behavior and corporal punishment varies by child sex. Aggressive Behavior, 44(2), 209–220. 23. Gershoff, E. T. (2016). Should parents’ physical punishment of children be considered a source of toxic stress that affects brain development? Family Relations, 65(1), 151–162. 24. Afifi, T. O., Mota, N., Sareen, J., & MacMillan, H. L. (2017). The relationships between harsh physical punishment and child maltreatment in childhood and intimate partner violence in adulthood. BMC Public Health, 17(1), 1–10. 25. Porzig-Drummond, R. (2015). ‘Help, not punishment’: Moving on from physical punishment of children. Children Australia, 40(1), 43–57. 26. Poulsen A. (2018). The role of corporal punishment of children in the perpetuation of intimate partner violence in Australia. Children Australia, 43, 32–41. 27. Afifi, T. O., Mota, N. P., Dasiewicz, P., MacMillan, H. L., & Sareen, J. (2012). Physical punishment and mental disorders: Results from a nationally representative US sample. Pediatrics, 130(2), 184–192. 28. Afifi, T. O., Fortier, J., Sareen, J., & Taillieu, T. (2019). Associations of harsh physical punishment and child maltreatment in childhood with antisocial behaviors in adulthood. JAMA Network Open, 2 (1), e187374, 1–10. 29. Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP). (2013). Position statement: Physical punishment of children. Sydney, NSW: The Royal Australasian College of Physicians Paediatric & Child Health Division. Retrieved from www.racp.edu.au/docs/default-source/policy-and-adv/pchd/physical-punishment-of-children.pdf?sfvrsn=dab4351a_2 30. Heilmann, A., Mehay, A., Watt, R. G., Kelly, Y., Durrant, J. E., van Turnhout, J. et al. (2021). Physical punishment and child outcomes: A narrative review of prospective studies. The Lancet, 398(10297), 355–364.

Hang on, you've changed your tune after being challenged. It's almost as if your assertions aren't as well evidenced as you initially claimed.

Yes, that's what's happened. My well evidenced, researched, educated opinion crumbled when confronted with your opinion.

Crack a book.

Which ones are meta studies and can be listened to and which ones don't address my point?

Still waiting for you to explain for the benefit of us 'uneducated' instead of just copy and pasting walls of text...

God knows how mine all got degrees, post grad qualifications and good careers. Just think what they might have achieved if they hadn't had a smack once or twice as 2 year olds.

So why did you change your tune then?

Just to add that its definitely possible to bring up well-behaved kids without smacking. Mine are 16 and 19. It's been known since the 60s that smacking might work in the short term but makes behaviour worse in the long term.

Here you go @ColonelDax journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437211000632

Specifically related to smacking rather than worse forms of violence against children.

Same.

Either graduated or at uni. And I have an MSc but apparently can't possibly understand Mrs Terry Pratchett's points. 🙄

Not smacking doesn't mean being soft and allowing them to do what they want. Mine were told off but not smacked

My eldest was like this. What stopped it in the end (after trying lots of different approaches) was giving 100% of my attention to the person he hurt. So if he hit a kid with a car for example I'd make a huge fuss of checking the child was ok etc etc then I'd do what ever my kid's consequence was (losing the car, being taken away from the play area etc) in the most boring way possible literally take the car away and one sentence 'oh well you can't have this if you're using it to hurt people'. After that I wouldn't engage - he could tantrum or barter as much as he wanted but I ignored it. Not all children are the same but my eldest definitely needed to understand that behaving that way wasn't a short cut to getting my attention obviously I made sure he got it in lots of other ways instead.

@Iwasafool I'm glad your children dodged a bullet.

I also knew someone would talk about education outcomes. Because that's always what parents who do this mention. More important are mental health outcomes, relationships, and unhappiness, all things children are prone to hiding from their parents. Particularly abusive parents.

I'm sure I could slap DD into higher marks. Wouldn't help her MH though.

I think the six month old getting hit is sub-optimal and potentially far more dangerous than a smack on a two year old bottom. Like anything else if it is done repeatedly it loses the effect but a one off smack for a two year old deliberately hurting a baby will almost certainly be effective.

"There are, however, notable limitations and gaps in the literature examining the associations between spanking and poor outcomes."

Literally in the abstract.

Come on... 🙄

If you are using your behaviour on this thread to somehow prove that smacking never harmed you then you are failing

I would say this is clear evidence that smacking did not prove your behaviour or help you interact

Their mental health is fine thanks, all in long term relationships, all parents themselves now.

Just to clarify as you don't seem to have understood, a one off smack as a two year old didn't have anything to do with smacking them into higher marks, that came with them being responsible children who understood boundaries.

wtf? Assault your toddler as that works? Hopefully she’s not in Scotland Ireland or wales where it’s already fucking illegal.

who recommends violence ?

Exactly.

The deliberate lack of nuance from some posters on here is ideologically driven and does nothing to help struggling parents.

no one is disputing that assaulting a child will make them fear you and stop them repeating something. You’re being told that it is an awful lazy nasty way to parent.

and only some one who lacked any form of ability to understand parenting would see violence as the way forward