DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

this was common among my friends when we were 5-8, and not considered threatening. As far as I know, we all developed into normal adults with a better understanding of boundaries

right, and were you crying when two boys forcibly removed your pants and touched you? If not, it’s not the same thing, is it?

Yes that concerned me too - they did it because they wanted to punish her.

As someone who was abused by a lodger when I was little, I always felt like my mum never protected me. If I were you - and you are probably doing this already - I would really stress to her private parts are for her only, and if anyone else wants to see them, ITS WRONG, and she should tell you.

Sorry you are in this position though - must be hard.

I came to say this too. Overtly sexualised behaviour is a sign of a child having been sexually abused /being sexually abused and I would be looking into this as a possibility asap. Can you talk to him or with a counsellor trained in this area with children and find out if there’s a cause like this

Please make sure your little girl feels safe

Your DS must have no unsupervised contact with your DD, I would consider moving him to a grandparent’s house or other relative while you get advice from social services. Don’t minimise this, it’s not normal behaviour no matter what anyone on this thread said. There is plenty of things in place at school to know confidently that your DS and his friend know what they did is wrong.

I'm sorry, get your son help.

Agree with this. His friend denied touching the little girl, but both she and her brother said he did. I think the friend needs help too.

Just to say, some people have said to keep it light with your DD - please don’t. Don’t let her think this is nothing. She needs to know this so wrong and if anything like it happens ever again she can tell you immediately. Don’t minimise it just because she is four.

Im so sorry OP. There is some good advice here, I hope you get the support you need. X

DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

Hmm, that is potentially an ASC sign? And you mentioned sensory issues as well. Does he have any other social oddities or difficulties? You said he's friendly and has friends, which is very hopeful, but does he do things which he calls "jokes" which might actually be because he doesn't really understand what's appropriate and what's not?

But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

Yes willies/bum/poo is normal for age but repeatedly "taking it too far" and pulling down his own trousers even after he's been given a row for it, that might not be.

It's as if he doesn't have a sense of what is socially appropriate and what isn't - he only knows it's wrong after you have sent him to his room and shouted at him. He just might not be connecting his boundary-crossing behaviour to your reaction.

You may need to keep reinforcing what's acceptable and what isn't, breaking it down and repeating it. Having "strong words" may not fix it because that's too much of a one-off. He may need more of a constant dripfeed of information and repetition (what is acceptable behaviour, what is not, before every social occasion) and also supervision. And make sure there's a consequence (not necessarily a huge one) for any and every infraction.

Your poor poor DD

You should make sure your DS is never ever left alone with her or any other child. You should report this to school and to the GP and seek support for your child.

My worry is that he is being abused and acting out what has been done to him.

But your focus has to be on your dd. She's only 4 and she's been sexually assaulted - and it was because she was annoying - so it was planned to humiliate her.

Report the other child as well by the way, but your focus has to be on your dd.

This is a pattern you need to watch out for. This isn't normal curiosity for either of those 2 boys.

I hope you've spoken to that boys parents and reported both him and your ds further because this is not normal behaviour.

Your poor DD. Do not minimise this, you tell her this was wrong and no one should ever touch her there then you ask your son wtf was he doing humiliating her and touching her private parts because in his words "she's annoying"

Exactly and what’s extra grim is he said he did it to punish her. This is classic sexual deviant behaviour.

I used to work in children services and this kind of thing would be considered concerning.

When I was 4, my older brothers were 7 and 9, and this would never have happened.

He needs immediate intervention before it escalates further. Agree with pp that this behaviour could be an indicator he has been abused by an older child or adult. It’s very sad all around.

Also well done for being brave enough to post about this @Tazzietoes and how to find help 💐

Mn can be harsh at times but a lot of the advice is spot on

Apart from make light of it to dd. She needs to know this isn't on and won't ever happen again from ds or anyone else

OP - this will help you greatly in understanding what to do next and help needed - look at the website for ‘ centre of expertise on child sexual abuse’ - it has toolkits and advice for families in your situation. Your DS isn’t an abuser but you need help as a family to put in boundaries with your DS and address his behaviour asap which I think you know. It’s not only about his behaviour towards his sibling but also other children and the risk to himself if an older child takes advantage of his poor boundaries about bodies/ private parts. You sound like a great mum, your doing all the right things but stuff like this needs professional support x

https://www.csacentre.org.uk/research-resources/

7 is way too old for this argument. A toddler stripping off and showing their bits is normal. A school aged child shouldn't do this and they should also know that their privates are private. It's especially disturbing because OP's son knew he was in the wrong and has been told about boundaries countless times before.

If I was OP I'd be concerned that someone has SA her son or her son has accessed inappropriate adult material online. It's not normal for a 7 year old to do this.

The fact he did it as punishment for being annoying shows it's not just normal curiosity- it was done with intent to upset/hurt her. This is the most frightening part of your post. Something is very wrong, and you need outside assistance in this situation. Just because he knows he's done something wrong now, doesn't mean it's fixed.

I'm a bit surprised you didn't prioritise making phone calls today. You need to do that as a matter of urgency tomorrow.

This is not a CAMHS issue. It needs referring to Childrens social care or whatever the social services is, in your country OP. They will do an assessment and can refer to appropriate services and/or do appropriate work with your son to address the issue. Do not do nothing as you potentially leave your daughter and other children at risk from his behaviour.

@ameen I assume you're new to Mumsnet as spamming surveys across multiple threads isn't permitted but WTF were you thinking of posting it on such a sensitive topic.

Easy for everyone to preach right now, just wanted to say big hugs in a bloody difficult time for you. X

That's a good idea but be careful the little girl doesn't think it's her fault.

This was my immediate thought when i read the initial OP.
I would prevent that friend from coming to your house and not let him go to his house either.

Thank you for all the links and helpful suggestions. I’m so sorry to posters who have personal experience of this.

I’m going to leave this thread now. This is an awful situation and suggestions that I‘m not putting DD first is pretty upsetting.

Thank you again to the people that have taken their time to help me process what happened today and make a plan to go forward.

My observations are that 3/4 yo tend to be curious and will sometimes find a hiding place to show eachother their differences - however it is always curiosity led and if there is any touching it it always innocent and mutual ie none of them are upset. We will usually have a gentle talk about what boys and girls have and that all areas covered by pants/knickers are private and not to be shown to friends at nursery.

Toilet talk and laughing about it tends to be in the 5-8 Yr bracket but usually they are aware enough not to be touching anyone else. They could possibly still expose themselves (especially boys) but in a silly way not to make others uncomfortable. Anyone over age 5yr is generally aware that you don't touch others in private areas.

I'd probably keep an eye on the situation and make the school aware if you feel they can support you. Remind your daughter of putting boundaries in place, saying no and being able to talk to you.