DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

This happened to me, well a lot more than touching, can I just make a small suggestion that you don't cry about it in front of your daughter or make her feel like you are upset. I felt very guilty because this is what my mum did

I know a family where the 6/7 year old boy did similar with his sister and also to girls at school - a few incidents close together in time. School were informed, parents called in social services. He has not grown up to be a predator nor was there any evidence that he had been abused himself. It was all about willies and Fannies and bums and he just did not listen and respond properly the first couple of times he was spoken to. Third time the parents went ballistic and I think school staff were very tough with him. He cried a lot - and apparently never did it again.

OP, I hope very much this is a similar case of a child ignoring what he has been told before but that faced with very angry parents now he will be shocked into realising that this has to stop.

I have twins, a DS and DD, who are 7 in a couple of weeks and I would say that they are both past the bums and willy stage. There was a time I had to reinforce the message that what is in your pants is private but that was a couple of years ago. However, DS is way behind DD emotionally and like you it can be like talking to a brick wall in other regards. Physically and verbally lashing out when other kids are mean being one of them. I do feel like DS has got stuck in this stage of his development and we are now looking at SEN. My suggestion would be is this a developmental issue as opposed to anything more sinister?

Oh mum what a situation. I’m so sorry. Here are my two cents:

It is very serious and needs addressed immediately. I’d be concerned as to where you son would have discovered the idea to “pull down pants and touch”. I realise it doesn’t bear thinking about but has someone done that to him? you need to get to the bottom of it quickly and I’d be using experts - child psychologist and GP would be my first calls.

i’d also be making sure he is seeing NOTHING of this nature on any tv show / you tube / gaming (if you allow this).

absolutely no sleep overs or chances for him to be naked with others apart from yourself and DH.

It’s not normal & definitely a risk for your daughter and any child around him if you don’t get a handle on it quickly.

I hope you get him back on track. 💐

You need to get some advice and support from the NSPCC, your GP and critically you must speak to the headteacher of your son and daughters school. It is important everyone is aware of this and previous incidents so as best to safeguard any further events and get your son the support he needs. I am so sorry this has happened to your DD, I cannot imagine as a Mum how you must feel but it is of huge importance that you deal with this immediately.

You need to speak to the other child's parents as well as the Nspcc and social services, they will advise and support your family.

I think there is a lot of overreaction in these responses.

I would be wary of speaking to the NSPCC or the school but would be tempted find a private therapist specialising in this area.

People who think children are not sexually aware are just wrong - children are very sexually aware and curious, this was common among my friends when we were 5-8, and not considered threatening. As far as I know, we all developed into normal adults with a better understanding of boundaries.

Your DS needs very strict guidance about how to behave - do not shy away from very frank discussions, and the potential consequences. Explain that adult sexuality is very special and a gift, but must not be misused. I would assume he is capable at 8 of understanding those concepts, I think my two would have been (now adult, so it's a while ago).
Your DD has been humiliated and needs support for that but I wouldn't treat her like she's the victim of some sexual deviant. I would make it clear to her that your son has been punished for treating her badly.

You need to speak with the other child’s parents

I thought this too

This happened to me as a child but my brother and his friend pulled my trousers and pants down and took a photo of me (back in the day of old camera films) the film was sent off and the photo cam back, my mum punished my brother. My brother didn’t turn out to be a sex offender, he is now grown up with his own family and is a great dad.

I think the main thing is that you get across to DS how serious this is and how he’s never to touch her or remove her clothes again. Do not leave them alone with her. I would be worried as to why he did it, has he seen things he shouldn’t have? Has he been abused by an adult or older child?

Gosh I am so sorry. For some reason your son seems sexualised its important to speak to a therapist to work out why.
Also this was a bit of a flag for me....."She said they‘ve had a similar situation with his younger brother but never with him." Are you sure this friend did not plant the idea with your son with the idea and your son thinks it was his own idea? I mean both this friend's younger brother and your son did the same thing? What's the coincidence in that? I would be asking your son without leading him what was talked about before this happened.

I was annoyed at the PP earlier in the thread that implied how much/how long he touched her for is relevant. It isn't. Sexual assault is sexual assault, no matter how long it lasts for or how invasive it is.

What the actual fuck is wrong with you?

This is ridiculous. of course she has been sexually assaulted - the ages of the perpetuator make no difference. All being 8 means is he can't legally be charge unless he was 10 - doesn't mean he did not sexually offend,

I would be absolutely focusing on your DD here. Try and find out what support there us for her. She's the priority

Part of my job involves Safeguarding across schools in a local authority. What you are describing in the series of incidents you relate about your son is very unusual behaviour and I think you are right to be concerned.

The incident with his sister is one type of behaviour but the number if incidents and the range of different types of incidents is quite disturbing- and I say that as someone who hears about incidents most days. His lack of boundaries is part of this.

You must call him out on every single instance you know of when it happens and discuss seriously and clearly why it is completely inappropriate and reinforce what he must do- then pull him up on every bit if not doing the right thing.

I think you have a range of people you can contact for advice and support. There is a natural instinct here not to want to 'label' your son and to take the least intrusive action- which might be visiting your GP. I think that it likely to be totally ineffective. Even if the GP referred him to, say, CAMHS, waiting lists for initial appointments are enormous- 18 months+ in our local authority and that is for an initial appointment.

I would talk to the safeguarding lead at his school about your concerns and ask them to find out from the local authority what is the best way to get him help. Be very honest. Your child needs support and intervention but other children should also be protected. You should also talk to the Safeguarding lead at your son's school so that they can make sure there is appropriate supervision in place to prevent further issues happening as far as is possible.

I think you should be very careful about leaving your child alone with any other child whilst this is being 'dealt with'. If you can not be sure a child is safe with your DS do not allow them to be with him without an adult present.

He's a small boy, establishing how he relates to the world but these patterns quickly become set if not dealt with now.

I would also be speaking to the parents of the other child- who should know their son was involved.

You need to seek professional help at this point. This could be nothing, perhaps it’s an isolated incident and everyone will move past it. If it is not, then next time it could be worse and there could be very real consequences even though your son is only a young, vulnerable child himself.

if you live in a country where you can access pediatric mental health services, then I would start there immediately for both children. Introductory therapy for young children doesn’t have to be scary. For my child she was offered the chance to play with toys, but being her own unique self chose instead to bring her own art supplies to sessions and drew because the ones they stocked were too pedestrian for her liking. No one said anything because the point is to be child focused and give children a safe space to express themselves. We weren’t dealing with issues like this, but if you have the resources, I still think it’s a good place to start.

You also need to be getting his friends part in this properly investigated: his mum has said the younger one has had an incident and now the elder one just assaulted your daughter - I don’t care who’s idea it was, herd mentality is not a defence here. I wonder if this friend is where this behaviour is stemming from? What ever way, this needs professional involvement for ALL involved, as others have said.

i cannot emphasise how important it is that this family speak to external agencies and get support. It is a huge safeguarding issue. If the OP’s DD discloses this information to a member of staff at school they will have to report it.

Are you insane? What an awful post.

This 4 year old little girl has just been sexually assaulted by not one, but two boys, do you think their age makes any difference to what SHE experienced? This could stay with her for the rest of her life, it could have happened before and happen again and you want to minimise? My god, the continued ignorance around the impact of child abuse in this day and age is sickening.

OP, you need to talk to your daughter and find out if this has ever happened before, do not minimise as she may well remember when she’s older. You need to protect her from him, his intentions don’t matter, the impact on her will be the same.

I get very bad vibes about you. If this is true it’s horrifying and you shouldn’t be blaming others, your son needs serious professional intervention. I’ve reported as I don’t think it’s genuine.

I agree. The focus here seems too much on him. She is the one who is in need of support most here.