Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

Pregnancy and breastfeeding aren’t the only reasons. These were examples where I think nature has indicates them as being more capable than men, whether they utilise these features or don’t, that’s the woman’s choice, but doesn’t make them less of a caregiver.

My opinion is that females are better primary caregivers for children, regardless of whether they breastfeed or not, adopt or not. I think women are naturally better - just my view. So no, it doesn’t make you less of a caregiver. Even though you didn’t breast feed, you were still born a woman.

Exactly

I agree

Do you not think this is largely down to social conditioning and expectations?

Women are socialised to expect to be the main caregiver and it becomes a large scale self fulfilling prophecy?

Men also aren't judged by society if the relationship ends and they move out and don't take on 50:50 childcare.

If a woman wanted to not be resident parent and instead do 50% or less, this would absolutely be questioned and judged far more than if a man did the same.

Societal expectations around caring responsibilities.....

Society still expects women to take on the role of primary carer.

Both me and DH travel for work. When I'm away I get asked who is caring for DS. Nobody has ever asked DH that question.
People do ask DH how he survives without me and he gets multiple offers of help.
When DH is away nobody asks me how I'm managing or offers to help. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Okay I'll bite.....

I'm GC. Sex does matter in relation to strength and physicality. Generally men are stronger and faster so should not be playing sports with women or competing directly with women in sports where strength and speed are key.

This also applies when we look at women's safety. We shouldn't be allowing men access to women when they are at their most vulnerable.

Obviously men and women are different in a biological sense - only women can get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. This fact has been used to discriminate against women and means women are at a disadvantage, particularly in the workplace. Which is why this is a protected characteristic when is comes the the equality act.

It's important that we acknowledge that women are different biologically from a medical science point of view. To ensure that treatment and drugs are developed to work for women and men.

However, what the OP has largely been discussing in nothing to do with biology. She is discussing gender roles, these are a social construct. There is no evidence that biology makes women more caring or able to nurture. Just like there is no evidence that men are biologically programmed to earn the money to support their wives.
These are societal expectations and are not predetermined by biology.

One of the biggest issues I have with the current trans movement is that the concept of a woman seems to be based on very stereotypical, outdated ideas of womanhood.... almost a parody of what it means to be a woman so I'm not sure we should be using trans ideology to support the OPs ideas.

Oh and before I get jumped on.... I'm not anti trans. People should be able to live a life that makes them happy. Just not at the expense of women's rights.

monsteramunch
Absolutely social expectations.

Make it socially acceptable for men to walk away when the relationship ends, make is socially acceptable for men to do very little when they're in a relationship, praise men to high heaven for how much they "help" their wives/partners out, talk about men "babysitting" their children when what the dad is actually doing is being a standard hands-on dad, and then wonder why men/women behave differently.

We can look at how many threads on here there are with husbands and fathers doing very little, taking on expensive and time-consuming hobbies once their wife is pregnant, or how often some men seem to 'work late' and the woman is expected to accept it and be grateful for crumbs because he pays the bills.

We could also look at how careers linked to "women's work" pay less too because caring is considered as womanly and therefore not worth much.

We could also look at socialisation of girls and women and how often it gets to the point that it "just makes sense" for Mum to give up work/give up her career/lose her financial independence, often without much question about alternatives that involves life for the dad changing.

Women have been oppressed based on their biology, which includes their ability to be pregnant and breastfeed, for generations. It's running through most elements of society.

Using women's age-old oppression to justify forcing men into financially providing for women who want to have the option of unilaterally give up work isn't the gotcha some posters think it is.

Society.

try being male and seeking primary care of your children.

courts won’t take primary care from a mother unless she is unfit. Even if the dad has been main carer, has a more flexible job etc. residence always goes with the mum.

if you do try society sees you as an evil bastard taking the kids off their mum to spite her. Have a read of the countless threads here where any man who wants 50:50 is doing it to avoid paying maintenance.

women don’t want men to able to share care after separation. Again on here I’ve seen women advised to not let him go pt or be a sahd, as if they split he may have a slight chance of “taking the children”.

it’s not that women are better or more natural, it’s the way society is set up that has mum as main parent.

This.

My DH has a 50:50 arrangement with his kids. I've been told several times "oh that's great he's such a hands on dad" or "oh it's great he had his kids so much". How many times do you think similar comments have been made to his ex? I'm guessing none. I've also had people say "what kind of mother can wave off her kids for a week?" "If me and DH split up I'd never let him have my kid that much". Can't win.

But I thought biology did state women were more able to care and nurture? And have higher levels of empathy? Obviously we can strive to change this as much as possible with nurture but there is a biological bias?

But I thought biology did state women were more able to care and nurture? And have higher levels of empathy? Obviously we can strive to change this as much as possible with nurture but there is a biological bias?

It doesn't.
Women are not pre-programmed to be more nurturing or show higher levels of empathy.

@Lastnamedidntstick I have to agree with you 100% on the issue of residency. I've been through it myself with DH and his son. And to make sure residency remains with the mum, the system will ensure the fathers are demonised and basically have stuff made up about them by professionals to ensure they do not get residency and even worse, to try and get contact supervised.

I agree with those saying society.

My baby's keyworker is a man and if it comes up in conversation, he is usually met with suspicion and even some outright saying that they wouldn't want him doing personal care such as nappy changing.

Yes! I can relate to this. DH was a passenger assistant for additional needs children and the looks he got from some parents because they were used to female staff!

Really? Why is maternity leave even needed if women are supposed to leave work when they get married.

For the single mothers and lesbians I guess who aren't allowed the same 'rights' in the OPs world

I guess they are supposed to be grateful they still get maternity leave 🙄

Since I hold the opinion of women being primary caregivers, I never rejected the idea of women not working, should they wish to. At least a longer funded maternity leave allows more flexibility for women who wish to stay home with their children. As they will start free nursery/school from ages 3/4 anyway.

You aren't willing to respond to the research that shows that children with parents who share parenting and housework are happier than children with parents following traditional gender roles though are you?

Which research? Either way, many people may prefer to share parenting and financial responsibility equally, and are comfortable with that. Just in our culture, I’m used to and favour the idea of the childcare responsibilities in early years to be taken care of by the mother, while father manages financial. This has worked well. This doesn’t mean they can’t help each other out, but the primary roles are what I believe in. Regardless of the traditional roles, fathers should still help out at home where possible, and also attend to their children emotionally too.

The research I posted links to in replies to you twice

Actual scientific research as opposed to your opinion on which you want to change our culture because you think your opinion is the best one 🙄

So far research has shown that your way makes men unhappier and unhealthier, women unhappier, children unhappier but you still persist in insisting that traditional gender roles are best despite evidence otherwise.

I am not trying to change your culture. I just posted my preferences. I even said if others prefer a different arrangement, that’s their choice. People are free to believe what they want. Research isn’t exactly going to take into account all cultures’ normalities for childcare, to conclude it’s accuracy. It could be biased. People’s childhood experiences, lifestyle preferences, and personal comfortabilities normally shape their choices.

Okay got it

You want to change married womens rights but not change the culture

You believe 'science' says women are the best caregivers but dont believe any science that says anything different because it might be biased (you of course not being biased at all)

Have you considered just telling your DH he needs to find you giving up work and finding out his opinion on the subject?

What country is it where women are encouraged to stay at home and yet women are respected?

Some unspecified Asian country apparently

I guessing unspecified because about 5 minutes with Google would dispute her claims

Have you considered just telling your DH he needs to find you giving up work and finding out his opinion on the subject?
Exactly.

No changes to rights are required if two people with the same views want to structure their family that way.

I suspect the OP knows that their DH/future DH might not be on board and that's why they're awfully keen to have a situation where they could force a man into being the breadwinner.