Mother of child won’t let me have my daughter overnight. Is she being unreasonable?

[Throwaway388]

Me and ex have a 15 month old baby together.

Me and ex split before we even knew she was pregnant. When I found out, and knew she would not get an abortion. I stayed with her during the pregnancy but we did not get back together. I supported her in all ways for the sake of the baby atleast.

I always loved my child and a bond was instant from when baby was born so don’t have the issue (or blessing in some cases) of not caring about/wanting baby.

Baby’s mum is the reason we argue as she is very spiteful that im not with her and set on making my life hard and asserting dominance and control anywhere she can. I have been doing everything on her terms for the last 15 months.

I have been going to her house just to be around my child and staying there overnight. We naively agreed that I would stick around until she feels baby is ‘old enough’ to coparent. We argue very frequently and this often ends up in her becoming violent (breaking my things, hitting me sometimes and I’ve had to defend myself before through restraining) and kicking me out the house in front of child.

Lately I have noticed my child hates it when we argue and starts moaning, so last week I decided it was the last straw after the usual argue/get kicked out/can’t see baby for over a week cycle.

I want my life back and want to be able to move on with my child properly without having to be around her.

She has agreed to let me have my baby 2 days a week during the day and drop baby off before dinner time. I want baby to stay overnight with me but mum is insistent it’s too early and that one day she will be ready to do it, but currently she is not comfortable with letting baby stay anywhere (implying I am on the same level as her sisters)

She has no problem leaving baby with me from morning til night where I do the bedtime routine etc while mum is out for friends bdays/parties/clubbing but has a problem with me doing this at my own house.

She doesn’t understand that I’m the child’s dad and have rights?

So I have spoke to mediators who put me in touch with a lawyer for ‘advice’. The lawyer called me this morning and tried to scare me into buying an hour consultation with them saying the only solution is to go straight for a court order as baby’s mum will never be cooperative, will only get worse etc etc I’ve had anxiety all morning from the call.

It’s like I’m used to this situation which others see as absolutely crazy but when I realize it’s not normal and it’s really bad it gives me anxiety. This is stressing me out a lot.

I pay towards baby’s mums rent every month and half gas and electric (which I’m not happy about but whatever) and half of baby’s needs e.g nappys milk wipes. I also on my own will buy baby toys and clothes more than what baby needs but just because I want to sondon’t mind that.

Currently my options are:

1. Run away, abandon baby and try to get over it (not going to do that)
2. Wait until baby’s mum is more cooperative and give it more time until she’s ‘comfortable’ with letting baby do overnights/try to talk her into it (been trying for ages it’s not working)
3. Initiate mediation which will go in my favor but scared to ‘take it there’ with baby’s mum as she could become even worse.
4. Go to court. Also scared to do this as mum could just make up lies and once a court order is in place it’s stuck. I have a friend who’s child’s mum lied in court and now he can’t see his kids at all after spending thousands.

I’m leaning towards option 2 but I’m really reaching the brink. I’m under stress constantly and it affects my daily life. I just don’t want any more drama and want to have some peace and be with my child regularly so they could have me and their mum and live a decent life with split parents.

What should I do? Am I being unreasonable? Is she being unreasonable?

It’s not about you not being equal to her Mum. You’re talking about changing a 15 month olds routine from seeing both parents in the same environment together (although granted that the relationship doesn’t sound very healthy) to you having her independently AND overnight in a totally different place?

That’s a lot a little one to deal with.
Take it one step at a time. Get your child used to being with you alone during the day for a period and then revisit overnights when she is a bit older. If the mum is still resistant, then pursue mediation/legal advice.

why should the mum have all the control in this?

This isn't really the relevant question here - the child living full-time with the mum is the status quo in your case. You didn't take this court when the baby was born (and I think based on other MN threads you would have been unlikely to get overnights at such a young age) and now a routine has been established. Your challenge is how to cause a change in that routine. People are offering advice on that basis.

The low conflict way to effect a change is to go along with the mother and until she finds it convenient for you to do overnights. You've outlined the higher conflict routes, and you may well find yourself going down those in the future. But this young child has only ever known sleeping at her mum's house, with her mum available to her in the night. What matters most (and what the court will look at) is what's in the best interest of this child. Having a relationship with both parents is definitely in the child's interest, but abruptly having to sleep somewhere strange may not be, especially at this young age.

I understand a woman’s feelings etc.

but bare in mind, baby doesn’t care about or share those feelings. I’m sure your child felt super safe being in the pool with their dad. The baby wants to be with their parents and if separated would want to be with both and would be happy that way as it is beneficial for them rather than when they’re older and will get anxiety being away from where they’re used to.

i get where your feelings come from, but that’s putting yourself before the baby’s best interests in my situation.

I get that it's unfair. I really do. But I think that you have to be pragmatic here. Taking the baby for those two days and delivering it back reliably is just a stage. Most mums would rather do things step by step. And it will stand you in good stead of you have to go to court, that you've taken it steadily and negotiated carefully and rationally.

The norm, for whatever reason, is that the mum is regarded as the primary carer. So it does mean, often unfairly, that it's the dad who has to prove himself to the courts etc. So in this case, going slowly and steadily is in your best interests in the long term.

I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds maddeningly frustrating. But you need to play the long game, be patient, and make sure that you're squeaky clean in your interactions and negotiations with the mum. Good luck.

The relationship between a mother and baby is special in the first couple of years, for obvious biological and cultural reasons. No reason why parents can’t be equal after that, although an equal split may not be best for the child. I would agree to her suggestion but aim to work towards overnights aged 2 perhaps. BUT if she’s violent towards you you shouldn’t just tolerate it, you really should involve the police.

Stop thinking about it as rights and control. You both want what is best for your daughter, even if you have different ideas on how that looks - focus on that.

If you can't agree about something mediation would be a good idea.

Overnights will be different from family to family. My husband is very involved with our kids but my 1yo would not accept comfort from him overnight (we have tried). But there can't be a blanket rule in place that would suit everyone. A solid night time routine is also important for very young children. It's important to consider both the benefits of the overnight stay and also the cost (ie the disruption) - often this isn't balanced until the child can understand simple explanations and get excited about having a bed in 2 homes.

Well, you are a visitor in child's life, mum is the permanent one. 15 months is too young to be away from their main care giver overnight, unless what you are proposing is 50/50 shared care?

If that is what you want, perhaps consider court and use the CMS for any payments.

And there is good evidence that babies/ small children generally have a particular bond with the mother, including a biological response, so saying it makes no difference to the baby is not quite right.

I'm with the dad here. Not sure why people are viewing this as 'overnight stays' like with a grandparent for example.

He's the dad. Day 0 he should be allowed to look after his child (unless still being bf).

If they were still together there'd be no issue him looking after the child if the mum went on a night out or something.

This is the mums issue, not what's best for the child.

The baby wants to be with their parents and if separated would want to be with both

At 7, yes. Below 2 the baby 'wants' consistency. A primary caregiver who is present and meets their needs. That can be dad, mum, anyone who has been consistently, constantly present since birth. That's usually mum.

If you are a caring, fun, warm dad in the daytimes, it will come.

All the arguments and fighting have to stop. THAT is what babies really don't want.

She's putting her child first. I know if I was let my son stop somewhere else over night he'd be distressed. He still needs to be close to me.

Nope. Wfh and stayed there everyday until around 9 months when I started going back and forth until last week.

Because they haven't lived together from day 1, so to the child mum is the constant and dad is the visitor.

Babies have a more intense bond to their mother than to their father. They're part of them.

a court would allow you overnight visits at least one night at a time. My friend’s DS used to be at dads 4 nights in a row from 18 months old after going to court.

The mother is abusive and you are a victim of domestic abuse. You should be allowed to have your baby overnight. As an alternative could you look after your child in the mothers house overnight and the mother stay at your place until the baby is a bit older. Shocking how your 'allowed' to do the bedtime routine etc when the mother wants to go out clubbing so clearly it's all on her terms and she is using the child as a weapon. I feel for you, you deserve equal rights.

I'm finding it hard to see what you want from this. You asked a question, a number of thoughtful posters gave you advice, but you don't like it and don't want to follow it. Okay, that's your prerogative. The lack of control over your ex and your child is clearly annoying you (understandably), but you're not going to control Mumsnet. Braver men have tried, and failed!

1. As a father, you have no rights. You only have responsibilities. The same goes for a mother.
2. The baby’s wants - The baby doesn’t want both parents equally. It wants a primary caregiver. In reality, this is almost always the mother.
3. The baby’s needs - The baby needs to form secure attachments in its’ early years. Please google baby attachment.
4. Because of attachment, it is considered best of overnights don’t start until the age of 2 or older.

If your baby had lived with you and still lived with you from birth, and the mother then wanted to have her overnight, the issue would the the same: it's about the child being away from the parent they live with, and waking through the night in an unfamiliar place, not anything to do with fathers being inferior or unsafe.

The mum has been the primary carer up until now and the child has a physical bond with her. Yes you have an emotional bond with your daughter but it is normal to build up to longer times away from home and the family court would most likely advise this.

So start with taking your dd out for the day, making her lunch, getting her familiar with your home, and then returning her to her mum at bedtime. It's a chance to equip your home with everything she needs as well. After a while, move onto a stay overnight and see how your DD copes.

The key is whether your DD is happy. The best interests of the child come first and so it is best to do things gradually. Neither parent has 'rights' to the child, it is the child who has a right to feel safe, secure and have a relationship with both parents.

I didn't allow my ds to stay overnight away from me until 3yo. He wasn't happy to do so. 15 months is still very young and you have limited experience in caring for your DD round the clock. Is she breastfed? Does she feed to sleep? Does she share a bed with her mum? etc

You have to co-parent for 18 years so you need to try to be amicable. The mum has offered you two days a week, so start there. Enjoy your days, see how it goes, then return DD to her own bed.

I am so confused by the responses but happy to have seen yours? I am genuinely shocked. The baby has stayed overnight at mine many times with 0 problems as mum has been there too. My baby doesn’t have issues staying anywhere, sleeps throughout the night and has no issues.

the problem with the 2 days a week is that she also picks and chooses if she wants to take those away. I’m shocked at some of the responses here

"The baby wants to be with their parents and if separated would want to be with both and would be happy that way as it is beneficial for them rather than when they’re older and will get anxiety being away from where they’re used to."

It's not a matter of mum's vs dad's rights -- this child is 15 months old and primary carer has been mum since birth. She does likely feel more attached to her mother and when upset or scared she is likely to seek comfort from her primary carer (mum). Being separated from her primary carer overnight is a big step and likely not in her interest at this age. Not because it's her mother but because it's who she likely is most attached to.

You seem to feel anxious that if you don't start overnight visits as soon as possible baby won't be used to staying over night and will resist. You are approaching this wrong. A gradual approach when baby is old enough and ready is better than an abrupt change at 15 months. She is very young and won't really understand what is going on at this age. FWIW my child is the same age and I wouldn't leave her alone overnight with her dad, my husband, who lives with her full time. It would be distressing for her at this age as she wants me if she wakes in the night.

Mum's behaviour in front of baby is atrocious so you are right to be concerned about that. But starting with full days for unaccompanied visits is entirely reasonable.

My ex felt much the same when I refused to agree overnights when our child was so young. It all got very unpleasant as he felt I was being ''controlling'' and ''denying him his rights'' out of spite. He instigated court proceeding for overnights. The court refused this one the basis of her young age and instead ordered (as per my original suggestions to ex) overnights at his parents be phased in when she was 3.5 yrs old. This later moved to overnights in his home. The phasing was not as slow as I wanted, it went from nothing to 2 nights every other other week over12 months. It was very very difficult for our child to make this transition and she experienced terrible separation anxiety which led to the pre-school, and later school raising safeguarding concerns. She resisted contact and became hysterical when picked up for many years. We tried school pick up, no better. When she got older she refused to go, he threatened me with court and change of residence. Sadly he communicated the same threats to our child.. I'd like to think this was out of desperation.. and not malice but hard to justify. I wish I had been able to convince my ex that my motivations were purely focused on our child, and her individual needs not the vendetta he thought I was pursuing...

She is now a teen and still suffers from anxiety issues associated with contact with her Dad which sadly has led to her now refusing to spend much if any time with him. Being that much older social services (involved due to ongoing concerns/ safeguarding issues) told her it was her decision. Only now does she feel able to say no. I have only recently better understood her experience of contact. I will admit I always thought she'd ''adapt'', I was wrong and in reality she was very traumatized by the change.

My daughter is not your daughter, but I share this as an example of what can happen when you force too much too soon. Your ex is wrong to withdraw contact because of arguments, very wrong. Please do however try and take the emotion out of this and focus purely on what your daughter needs at her very tender age. I understand this is very hard for you but one of you needs to put her first and be the adult. Having contact the 2 of you, at your Mum's is a great idea. Start with days and build from there.

Dude it doesn't matter about your feelings (or your 'rights' - note you dont rights, you have responsibilities, your baby is the one who has rights), it's about how to co-parent IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF YOUR CHILD. You know the one you gets distressed when their parents argue. Stop trying to get one up on your ex or prove you're an equal parent. Agree to regular sustained two daytimes per week context at your house. In due course your child will become used to seeing you separately and become familiar with your surroundings. Then, you'd be quite right to have overnight context because IT WOULD BE IN YOUR CHILDS INTEREST.

Try and agree that you will build towards overnight contact and maybe aim for this summer for that to start happening. You're going to be co-parenting a very long time, waiting a few months is by far the sensible option.

It sounds like you're a good dad. If you're sure your ex isn't going to change her mind about overnight stays then you will have to go to mediation to arrange that. I would start making a written record of what you are doing now: the days and amount of time you have your child, the amount of child support you are voluntarily paying to your ex, the amount you spend on clothes and toys for your home. That way if it does come to a legal situation you can show that you're doing everything to be a supportive father and you'll be in a stronger position.

I disagree with most of these comments. I think it's in the child's best interest to spend time with both parents, and at 15 mths there's no reason this shouldn't include overnights with dad. Nobody would query leaving a 15 month old at nursery or for a night or two at Grandma's, she doesn't need to be attached to mum 24/7. If dad is hands on, been very involved up until now and knows her routine she's as well off with him as with mum. It would be much more of a wrench to change routine at 3 than let it flow naturally now.
OP if you can't figure it out through mediation I'd go to court. You don't need a solicitor.