Should we have children?

[FrankPelham]

I am 47, DW is 39. We have been together for 17 years. I have a 28-year old daughter as a result of a teenage "holiday fling", she was born in America and at her mother's request has never been part of my life.

I have never wanted children and neither has DW. Until now... the ticking has started and it is loud. Many of her friends are pregnant or have babies. Sometimes DW gets very down about this situation, understandably. VERY very down.

Why don't I want children?

• Life is full. We both have many and varied interests in sports and the arts. We go out regularly, both together and individually. I don't want that to change.

• When I'm a pensioner, I don't want to be sharing my home with a teenager.

• We come and go as we please. We are both freelance journalists (on very different publications) so hours can be unpredictable and both of us sometimes work late at the office. Also, both of us often go climbing with friends (or camping, etc) for the weekend at very short notice. I don't want that to change.

• I love PEACE at home. During quiet weekends I like nothing better than to sit in our living room with the garden doors open and read the Telegraph in total silence.

• We are financially independent; we have never had a shared account; DW hates depending on other people. If we have a child, she will depend on me financially but will resent having to ask. I don't want to suddenly spend my money on anyone else and will resent being asked.

If I have children it will only be to keep DW, but my nice easy life will be ruined. And how much time will she be able to spend with me anyway? If I don't have children, DW may resent me for the rest of our days, or leave me to have children - which she is seriously considering.

What should I do? Can anybody share experiences of this situation?

I am asking in Mumsnet because after searching the internet for a suitable place to ask, there seems to be a good mixture of people here.

Oh yes... you should see dh puff his chest out with pride when people say ds2 looks so much like him! (And ds2 is a handsome boy if I say so myself!)

Ds1 is a clone of me - poor child

I don't think I can. I don't think I can be totally reassured that the things I fear will not come to pass

What exactly are your fears? Because, to be honest, all the negatives in your OP are true. You will lose your freedom, the silence, your calmness, organisation, nice careers, order and your peace. People who are trying to convince you that you won't have forgotten what those things means. Your wife will also change, beyond recognition. Your nice easy life WILL indeed be ruined. Unless you have extremely supportive family nearby then you won't be able to have nice weekends away. You just won't. Not for a good 15 years.

Whether or not that is worth the exchange for having a child, only you can decide.

Could you live a happy life, with all of those things, and without your wife?

I have close friends (similar age to you now) who have decided not to have children because of the reasons you list. Their relationship dynamic was similar to yours - she wanted them, he didn't. They have not had children but have instead travelled all over the world, had interesting careers, and spend as much time as possible being a fantastic aunt and uncle. They seem to have forged an alternate life without children, and are making sure they enjoy it as much as they can.

Frank, I wasn't convinced I'd be a brilliant mother before I had ds (and not sure I'd qualify now, either!). But I got to the point where I decided I had to find out, or let the chance slip by for ever. I'm so glad I did!

(This is a norty suggestion, but if you didn't enjoy being a hands-on dad, you could always get lots and lots of domestic help...)

It must be very difficult for you fankPelham and I am not sure what advice to give you. I have 2dc's and would not have felt complete without them. I can honestly say I would have left a partner if he would not have children with me. I know that sounds harsh but I dont mean it to be in the fact of not loving dp. Just that from a child, even a teenager, I knew that a career was not what I wanted, only to be a mum and a sahm mum at that. I suppose your dw has wanted the career and is now having a change of heart as most women would naturaly feel. I also know strongley now that I dont want anymore children, being in my thirties! Did you have an active part in your daughters life or do you believe you may not have fully experienced the having your own child type life. I feel sorry for you both in this dilema. Our life has seriously changed with children there is no denying it, with me ranking a definate last. No time for ourselves but on the bright side you wish to do everything for your kids. They bighten your lives and yes I do feel proud and wonder now actually what on earth dp and myself will do together in the future without them!! The other peoples children comment, I have little interest in other children now I have my own and like others have said it is so completly different having your own. My heart goes out to you both and I can see both angles and wish you the best of luck. Most importantly talk and talk and talk. It also shows how much you obviously care to start this thread. Goodluck

Morning Frank,

Read your OP and the postings - some good perspectives (other than, in this case, Xenia's somewhat unhelpful observations. Honestly, I know you are famed here for your strident views, but do get a grip girl.)

I remember having a conversation with a (female) colleague some years ago saying that the best thing that had happened for women was the advent of choice. The wost thing was the advent of choice.

You write than DW had never really wanted children either until now, so I imagine the thought roller-coaster you are on is a shared one. just because she now feels biology mounting an ambush does not mean she will not also resent those loss of freedoms. After 17 years, you know each other well enough and should be strong enough to really talk this through and share your fears.

My DH was the one who wanted the children, I never did. I started really having to think about it all in my mid-thirties because I was aware that, yes, time would run out. I feared depriving DH. I feared him leaving me. I feared being a mother when I had never been broody and yes, I KNEW my life was going to be knocked for six. Much of what you fear being lost -WILL be lost, at least for the first few years. Let no-one kid you otherwise. I had DS when I was 38. DH and I had been together for about 17-18 years. It is hard. It is still too early for me to make a real analysis of whether having a child was the right thing for me to do. I suffered bad PND and I sure as hell did regret having a baby (who was also sickly). However, I can say that it gets better all the time and I am enjoying getting to know the person into whom he is turning (he's 18 months old). I can't take him into the rainforests of the world yet or up a mountain - but I am teaching him the difference between monkeys and apes in preparation for the future!

Your life will be different. So will your DW's. If you do decide to jump over the cliff you need to go into it together and accept that. There is no right or wrong answer to which path in life will be better (I don't hold with the idea that life is empty without children); but I can guarantee it would be an adventure - it might even be fun! Weigh the risks thogether and determine whether you both want that leap of faith - than be prepared to think of your life as holding a tiger by the tail!

Frank - every single women who has ever been pregnant has had doubts and fears about whether they will be up to facing the challenge ahead and how it will change them and their lives - that's totally normal. NO one will ever enter parenthood completely doubt-free.

But I think entering parenthood unbegrudgingly is a separate issue to that: it's about once having made an active choice to do so (NOT a choice motivated by fear of your wife leaving, but an ACTIVE choice to "create and be responsible for a human life") then you have to be committed and open to solving the potential problems that come up along the way.

So, to take finances as one example, you may feel resentful about your financial plans being disrupted at this stage of your life and worried that you won't be able to earn enough to support a child through university. But are you prepared to start sharing a bank account, to work longer hours, to retire later??

It's like leaping off the top of the highest board at your local swimming pool. You will have fears as you ascend the stairs but once you are at the top and committed to what you are doing, there's a point at which you have just have to run for your life and leap in to the unknown.

I really feel for you because you thought your life was going in a certain direction and now that's all changed. You do still have a choice though. Don't feel rail-roaded.

I can't really empathise as I always wanted children more than my wife. We'd been together 13 years before our son arrived, and I love him more than I can express. I can say however that you'll have to be prepared for your life and relationship to completely with the arrival of children. If you in anyway resent their arrrival, you'll probably lose her anyway as her focus will inevitably shift from you to the child, and if you kick against that or are apathetic to fatherhood it will only go one way. That's not to say that she will love you less - the relationship has a deeper footing with children - but it takes a great amount of effort to keep things afloat at first.

There is also an immense amount you have to sacrifice when you have children; you can keep those things that make you 'you', as opposed to just 'Dad', but they're strictly rationed! You can forget about Peace.

The financial aspect is the least worrying. Presumably you share a morgage, or at least share outgoings on rent/food/bills. Calculate them and set up a joint account. If you earn equal amounts then no one is losing out, except when she's on Maternity leave, although to be honest if you're going to resent paying for your wife and child you're beyond help in my opinion anyway!

"Could you live a happy life, with all of those things, and without your wife?" Great point from Morningpaper.

I don't intend to sound harsh, but you do sound too self-centred to be 'ready' to be a parent. Only you can know if you're prepared to make that sacrifice solely for your wife, and only time would tell if you would changed by the circumstances.

frank, how many kids are you planning to have? i have three, and believe me, when only one is gone somewhere, the houseis os much quiter. i often wonder about people complainging abouttwo, because two is so much simpler than three.
and one is so simple compared to two. one child does not make any noise at all. zilch, zero. you can hear the tumbleweed floating past when there isonly one child in a house.
baby sitters are easy to arrange for one child. it is easy to take one child with you wherever you go. shoppin g is easy. expenses are easier. etc etc etc.
one child is , well, i am going to repeat myself here. so i wont. but, if your dw is so desperte that she is considering leaving you, then i think you need to think about how desperate you are to hang on to your current life. because it wont last like this if she doestn get what sheis as you say, so desperate for.

Actually Xenia is right and I don't see the harm in saying so. There is no points having an emotional discussion about the pros and cons and pretending that you aren't both getting on a bit.

By the time your wife has left you to find another relationship, and decided they are ready to have a child, she will only have a small percentage of a chance of getting pregnant. Google it, "by the time a woman is 42 years old, ninety percent of her eggs are abnormal, and there is only an 8 percent chance of having a baby without donor eggs."

There is an extremely high chance that if your wife leaves you over this issue, she is going to end up single and/or childless anyway. I think she needs to be rational about that, and weight those statistics in the decisions that she makes.

Hi Morningpaper, I agree that Xenia is right in terms of falling fertility - I think we are all aware of the stats (including Frank and his DW). What I thought was unhelpful was to say well, go ahead and try because it won't happen anyway. (I do agree that if Frank's wife were to leave her chances of finding another relationship and having a child are somehat slim, but I don't think that is the real issue. I know one friend who left her husband over a different view of children - she left him and adopted - but she was much younger.) I took slight exception as well to the instruction to go forth and get to know his other child - that is a whole other issue and not one about which advice was sought. However, trying to be helpful not contentious so perhaps my comments were misplaced -as you say, it is an emotive topic.

Hi Frank

I think we all have the same fears about having children.
I'll give you threeo opinion{s} here.

Me- female
Firstly i think you have a few deeper issues (one) you made up your mind long ago not to have children, and want to hold on to that philosophy, but you know life you can change your mind.

(two) I think you are a little scared about what it might bring up regarding your daughter, and if your not you should be as this sounds harsh but it will change your perspective about not knowing her. Your former girlfriend was wrong to deny you access.

(three) all your reasons are good, but probably not as black and white and final as they seem. You will still get some peace and quiet. luckily children need more sleep than us, and you can definately still travel etc.

I think you will get many biased views here, as we are mostly parents with no regrets. BUT that is what's interesting, some of the older people/family in my life most interested in my babies are childless by choice, in old age it never goes away- that curiosity...

Hi MP - I agree it would be barmy not to take age in to account when making this decision - it's unavoidable and it's what is creating the huge pressure behind this situation.

It was Xenia's assumption in the sentence, "The chance she's left is to [sic] ridiculously late may mean she isn't really bothered." that I was objecting to!

I can remember when we were contemplating having a family going to a friend's house and watinch her spoon feeding her baby (hadn't invented BLW in those days!)

I watched the pureed carrot going everywhere... all over the child's clothes and face... all over the floor... in the child's hair... and it all seemed to take so l-o-n-g. I can remember thinking 'Why do I want to put myself through this?'

But when it was my turn I just adored those little chaps so much that it was a pleasure to do it!

Oops! watinch??? watching

Not sure. I was 14 when I was reading my mother's NCT leaflets about birth positions. That was how into children and babies I was and I still adore babies now. If someone isn't too bothered and they're 39 and just thinking about it perhaps subconsciously they don't want it because they've certainly left it until it may well be too late. As she probably couldn't manage them with anyone else either may be you could stick together, try to get pregnant and then if it doesn't work you stay together and if it does work then assess what to do, particularly given you were able to leave the first child you had in your teens presumably you have the mentality to do that again with another child if it doesn't conveniently fit into your life this time either.

Men never really post like this on line. I'd be surprised if he were real but I am often wrong about things so who knows. When someone posts and then disappears that usually suggests that too.

"80% of people who try for a baby at 40 will be pg within the year. "
I tried for a baby at 43 and was pg within 10 minutes!

"The chance she's left is to ridiculously late may mean she isn't really bothered. If she was bothered she'd have got on with it before 35." Oh what nonsense....Frank - in many ways i lived a life very similiar to yours before I had my DS, and for reasons of career, dashing about life, mismatch of partner v wanting a baby etc, I did leave it 'ridiculously late'.

This is how it has panned out:

• Life is full. We both have many and varied interests in sports and the arts. We go out regularly, both together and individually. I don't want that to change.
  LOL - I was just like that. And I imagined that once we had a child we would go out to events separately twice a week while the other babysat, stay in together twice a week to talk, drink wine and watch good DVDs, and get a babysitter once a week to go out together. Totally unrealistic. I would like to go out a lot more - but it is just becoming possible, and in truth, i haven't missed it anywhere near as much as I thought I would. I just found a different rythm to the week.

• When I'm a pensioner, I don't want to be sharing my home with a teenager.
  Oh, please! If you have a child now, the child will be 18 and of to uni when you hit 65 - and anyway, 65 is hardly old, these days - don't be such an old fogey. And there are ways in whach having a child does keep you younger.

• We come and go as we please. We are both freelance journalists (on very different publications) so hours can be unpredictable and both of us sometimes work late at the office. Also, both of us often go climbing with friends (or camping, etc) for the weekend at very short notice. I don't want that to change.
  DP and I both have many evening work engagements, and it is true that juggling all that is hard. But we do go camping at short notice, and have been travelling with DS since he was 2.5 weeks old, It's a bit different, but not impossible.

• I love PEACE at home. During quiet weekends I like nothing better than to sit in our living room with the garden doors open and read the Telegraph in total silence.
  I do long for more completely quiet undisturbed time, but have learned to find it in different ways. And we structure it in at w/e when one or the other of us badly needs it.

• We are financially independent; we have never had a shared account; DW hates depending on other people. If we have a child, she will depend on me financially but will resent having to ask. I don't want to suddenly spend my money on anyone else and will resent being asked.
  We have no joint money except that which we put into our 'house account' for all the household stuff. Our money is our own. I had paid maternity leave, and have worked f/t ever since. Childcare costs are significant, though.

However, if you really really don't want to be a parent, you probably shouldn't be. If you do it unwillingly, you may resent your dw, she may resent you for your lack of commitment, and the relationship fail.

If she wants a baby, i think she should do her best to make it possible for her to have one - with or without you.

ood luck

Men never really post like this on line

Men rarely communicate on this issue, on-line or otherwise.

When someone posts and then disappears that usually suggests that too.

Realistically, this will probably be my only post to Mumsnet. But I haven't disappeared yet.

Ah, perhaps it's just women then who keep posting throughout threads they start because they can't shut up.....

Last year my friend left her partner of 15 years because, as you put it, the ticking was very loud. She wants to have children and he does not. She felt that she was going to have to make a choice and so she had find out which was the priority: could she live without him or without children. They still loved each other verym uch, so they were both heartbroken when she moved out. But being away from her dp, she learned that what she truly, deeply, wanted was to have children. They have separated, and my friend is looking for a new life-partner. She knows she has taken a risk, but she is in her mid-30s and feels she has to get on with life.

The really sad thing, IMO, is that her xdp would have made a fantastic dad. He is a bit bewildered by babies but was brilliant with my dcs and all her other friends' dcs.

Unfortunately both parents have to be committed to being parents. Yes, everything changes, including your priorities, but you can still have peace in your home, you can still have adult-time. As long as you can accept and adapt to change.

If you are hidebound you are lost. But that's true of life in general.

Frank, try posting in the Mens Room board. Bump in the evenings as well.

god that's sad PC -

Were you on the thread about schools ages ago and I noticed you went to KHS?

My DH would probably deny it now, but I think it fair to say we have our daughter because of me. We are approximately the same ages as you and your DW. We hadn't been married that long, which made it all the harder for him I think as he felt as if he'd barely started out with me before it all had to change. If asked if he wanted children the best he could come up with was 'Old age could be bleak without family around' and 'if we could have them as teenagers, it might be ok'.

I can tell you two things, firstly he was bowled over by our daughter. Secondly, I asked him only a few weeks ago if he was missing our 'old life' and his response was 'surprisingly, no'.

I feel for you both.

A flippant aside, but carrying a baby around (of increasing weight!) does wonders for the arm muscles - a friend tells me her climbing improved significantly after her first child was born...

"Realistically, this will probably be my only post to Mumsnet. But I haven't disappeared yet."

That depends! MN can be a very handy resource to bewildered expectant Dads

If what you wnat most is to keep your DW, you could take Xenia's strategy of trying for a baby. If you have one, you may adapt quickly and wonder why on earth you ever hesitated -or you may run a mile.

If she can't get pg, she will (perhaps) love you the more for having agreed to try.

I guess she needs to know that she wants a baby enough to go it alone if you panicked and dipped out in the event of pregnancy, and you need to feel that she is important enough to you that you could accompany her into parenthood.

80% of people who try for a baby at 40 will be pg within the year.

This figure should actually be 8%, I'm afraid