What the fuck am I supposed to do now?

[Sleepfailires]

18 month DS, tried to implement gentle sleep training. The problem is he refuses to sleep in his cot. He goes down OK but then wakes 2 hours later and refuses to go back in it.

Tried ‘gentle’ sleep training, me in the room with him stroking him and reassuring him.

He went absolutely berserk when I put him back down, screaming, thrashing around, I mean really hysterical screaming. Then after twenty minutes (and I was right by the cot) he vomited.

I am an absolute wreck, I am fat, my skin is grey, I am exhausted, broken, depressed, my relationship is suffering as we get no time together, we can’t think of having another child, my work is suffering. I don’t know what to do.

@youngwildandni

What else do you suggest then? op needs some sleep! She is every bit as important as the baby. Baby will have all its needs met. It will be fine. Mum needs her needs to be met as well.

@redundantmum

its not cruel. Sleep deprivation is cruel though would you say?

Anyway it drove me to near breaking point.
Eventually we just accepted that he’s a rubbish sleeper and tried to pre-empt him. Like be near to jump in before he stirred. Give up on having an evening downstairs watching a film. Just wait til he’s 2 and it should start to get better. And keep telling yourself he won’t be like this when he’s 16 so it is going to change

Your ds sounds so similar to my dd. I also reached the stage of accepting she was a rubbish sleeper and doesn't need much sleep and that actually did help me. It didn't improve the quality or quantity of sleep of course, but mentally it stopped a lot of torment inside my head. I think setting yourself up for a battle every night and then feeling like a failure for losing it, are exhausting too.

My first baby found it hard to sleep, he was a real 'velcro baby' that needed to be in contact with you for naps (unless he fell asleep in the car or pram), so contact napping in the sling or in bed was a real thing, I couldn't even leave him when he had an afternoon nap! Bedtime was a similarly tricky scenario... again, he had to be touching me. He would also feed to sleep and search for my boob for comfort in the night. We tried gentle sleep training but it ended up with him in hysterics (and me feeling anxious and upset) as he just wouldn't settle... no amount of "softly softly" gradual approach etc worked, he was hysterical no matter what we did. So we stopped... and my DH swapped with me (when the baby was about 14 months old) and co-slept with him instead (I slept in the spare room). This meant less access to boobs and meant sleeping through became more consistent. Eventually once he could comprehend the idea of a "big boy bed" (lots of stories and excitement) he moved into his own bed in his own room (he was about 2.5 but in hindsight we could probably have achieved this at age 2).

I would say my first child was "difficult" in many ways (napping, sleeping at night, breastfeeding in the initial stages, weaning)... and I didn't realise just how difficult he was until I had my second (who I'd say is probably an average baby but seems so, so much easier in comparison). I thought I was doing something wrong or failing as a mother, whereas I just had a "high needs" baby and it was out of my control.

At age 3.5 you'd have no idea that my little boy was so challenging early on. There's nothing underlying (that we're aware of - he seems just like an average 3.5 year old) and it was nothing we did as parents.

I was very anxious about having another baby because I was concerned the second would be the same, but he has a very different temperament. He sleeps and eats so much better!

OP, I could probably have written your post myself when my 2nd DD was a baby. We did co sleep, but definitely not by choice! Like your lo, she would go down in the cot fine, only to wake screaming a couple or 3 hrs later.

I tried various sleep training techniques, but invariably gave in and put her in bed with me (largely to stop her waking her sister). DH would sleep on the sofa. It wasn't great, and I can remember the middle of the night, sleep deprived frustration so well.

I don't have any pearls of wisdom to impart... DD just naturally started to sleep a bit better as time went on, and was finally reliably sleeping through the night when she was 5 (sorry!) and she's now 11 but I do remember those days and the absolute bloody torture of it!

A friend of mine with a very sleep resistant toddler did see her GP, who referred them to a sleep clinic; her child was eventually medicated. Might be worth considering?

Definitely! You can only parent they baby/child that you've got, not the hypothetical ones in the books. I fought DS1's poor sleep for a long time but it was actually doing me more harm than good.

Had very low expectations with DS2 (also a shit sleeper) but found it much easier to deal with mentally even with DS1 thrown into the mix. Everything is a phase with young children, no progress is linear and nothing lasts forever.

I lowered my expectations of myself, got in some help with some stuff (a cleaner to help with house stuff) and, to an extent, tried to roll with it.

We had to drop the nap with child 1 at about 20 months as it was such a struggle at night. Child 2 on the other hand (touch wood) has been much easier and still napping aged 2. She has her moments of night waking but has been much easier all round in terms of sleep pattern. Children are just all so different so definitely not you to blame.

Hi - I remember a midwife telling me that it is normal for babies to be awake at night. She gave me the scientific reasons which I have forgotten but just a quick google and I found this.

www.laleche.org.uk/reasons-night-waking-biological-norm/
Waking norms

OP isn't talking about a baby, though! Her child is 18m.

You have to think of you own mental health you matter too. And if you are too broken down you can’t look after him.

But if a baby starts on the wrong foot, then perhaps understanding the normal sleep patterns can go someway to helping both mum and child (baby)? Surely being in the know could be helpful?
I've only been on Mumsnet for 2 days, primarily to ask for advice about HRT. I saw the OP this morning and thought I would reach out. Must say I am quite surprised at how cranky people are. If the OP finds my offering rude/offensive/unhelpful in any way then she can ignore it? Or report it? What a waste of a reply.

@Pellets I’m really sorry you were upset but to be fair @MolliciousIntent is right, we aren’t talking about a newborn fresh from the womb here. And I agree that one or two wakeups would still be in the realms of ‘normal’ but I don’t think what I’m dealing with is normal at all.

OP I feel you first born was like this, would be sick until they were around 3 if Dh went near at bedtime or wake ups. Worst night ever was 6 sets of bedding as we decided to try and crack it. Didn’t work.

Would scream blue murder if you dared to suggest a cot.

Still a shit sleeper at 9 now, just doesn’t need a lot of sleep.

What helped me was:
cot side off with space for them to sleep next to my bed
accepting it was shit, life was shit
figuring out the routine to wake ups to preempt and get to them before the screaming / sick
said first born had terrible excema so piriton and calpol when needed

it does pass, but fuck me is life difficult with a sleeper like that x

An 18 month old is not sleep-depriving his Mum. He is not mentally capable of inflicting cruelty at that age. However for a parent to deliberately withdraw from comforting their child who is that upset? Well that to me is cruel. We are the grown-ups... parenthood is hard..you just have to try gentle ways to help them sleep and if they don't work you keep trying or just suck it up.

An 18 month old is still a baby

Could I have her details too please?

Oh god solidarity OP. This brings back memories. Both of mine were like this. After DD1 I thought another child couldn't be worse, but DD2 was. She's 5 now and still often wakes twice. We tried CIO for weeks with both of them and it didn't work. DD1 had some sort of internal switch at about 2.3 and just decided to sleep. It turns out she is autistic, but her sister isn't so I'm not sure that's it.

I went back to work at 6 months both times and it was so so dreadful.

We did manage to make co sleeping ok though. I would still wake up but at least I didn't have to move. Can you experiment to see if there is a way of making it more comfy, like making a huge floor bed if there is room? Can you switch so one of you co sleeps for half the night and the other the other half, or alternate nights? The other thing you could do is just remove yourself. I started travelling for work again at 1 both times and those work trips were like spa breaks. They did both sleep a little better with just DP there too.

I used to feel sick all day and would randomly walk into things from exhaustion. Some small children just loathe sleep at regular times. All the advice and classes can't prepare you for that. IME people with kids who sleep really well always think it's something they've done and it's pretty much luck.

But waking every two hours at 18m isn't normal. A normal sleep pattern at that age would be 1 or 2 wakes.

Solidarity OP, my first had colic, I physically wanted to throw her out of the window at points, I was scared of what could happen if it went on. Looking back there was probs something physically wrong but the health system just took the view it was normal. I’ve had another since and I’m older and less tolerant of being fobbed off. It was not normal. In the end a HV recommended that she was over 6months but had never taught herself to self-settle and we needed to try CIO. 16years ago this was more acceptable but still controversial. It worked within minutes .

I’m not suggesting that CIO is the solution, but please don’t let people guilt you into not doing/ trying things that are recommended. A sleep consultant sounds like a great idea. Sometimes talking it through helps
see clearer when you are so tired. At the end of the day millions of kids were raised by parents with zero idea of gentle sleep training and have grown up ok. If you have a mental breakdown they will not be ok. Do whatever you need to safely get you all through it and please accept / ask for the help you need x

What else do you suggest then? op needs some sleep! She is every bit as important as the baby. Baby will have all its needs met. It will be fine. Mum needs her needs to be met as well.

@LuckySantangelo35 🙄

Oh come on. Obviously mum needs some sleep. Obviously she needs her needs to be met too. I've not suggested otherwise! I'm suggesting that there are other ways to achieve this that don't involve CIO. The fact that OP has been trying gentle sleep training to date suggests to me that (at least up until now) she maybe hasn't wanted or hasn't tried CIO type methods.

As for 'baby will have all its needs met' - maybe it's basic physiological needs but not necessarily its emotional needs. ' It will be fine' - maybe it will 🤷🏻‍♀️ There's a lot of research that suggest maybe it won't, too.

OP has literally received hundreds of suggestions on this thread so in my post I said to read through them all and find one that she would feel comfortable trying, rather than issue a directive of 'do this/ don't do that'.

Personally, I had a next to me cot as a form of co sleeping. I bf to sleep. We had a bumpy ride but it eventually worked for us - it would be incredibly arrogant of me to assume this will work for OP too though. I despise the 'do exactly what I did and your baby will be sleeping through the night in 5 days' comments - every baby is different. I did whatever I had to do to survive and I picked and chose from the advice I was given until I found an approach I felt comfortable trying and that worked for me.

@LuckySantangelo35

* (CIO) its not cruel. Sleep deprivation is cruel though would you say?*

Sleep deprivation is absolutely cruel, yes. Being cruel in this way is an intentional act though - a baby crying at night is not intentionally trying to cause pain or suffering through sleep deprivation. It's communicating a need so it could be argued that ignoring that communication is the cruel act here 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well... normal is relative. It's certainly not common but I'm not sure it's pathological. It may well be totally healthy normal behaviour for this child.

That does not mean it is easy.

We should not really be asking whether something is normal, rather whether it is sustainable. Clearly it is not sustainable currently for OP.

Ignore the stupid name, but I think this approach is generally really good. Having googled a few of these names it seems that some of the people who have this accreditation offer sleep training as well and they do have a range of prices. Obviously I don't know your location nor have I used any of them so I won't recommend any but this might be a good list if you're thinking of going for a sleep consultant.

holisticsleepcoaching.com/holistic-sleep-coaches-database/

We skipped cot and went from co sleeping to full size single bed at age 2. With bed rail. I would lie in the in their room bed whilst they went to sleep ( did this with Dc1 & DC2 now) then I get out. Put on white noise / sleep music all night, also red night light as meant to help sleep. And the. I hope. Honestly they make massive leaps in sleeping by age 2. It's not 100% but by 2.5 I'd say even the most stubborn ones crack it. Then you have some crazy idea to do it all over again 😅

Oh we had the bed in their room a few months before they stayed in it all night. Did nice things like read books in their big bed.

@redundantmum

”just suck it up”

cracking advice!

Just suck it up OP!

Fuck your mental health, physical health and overall well-being. Carry on as things are and get no sleep and fall into a depression. So long as baby doesn’t have to experience slightest change to what suits him. You don’t matter now you have a child!

FFS!