daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

[t1lly]

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.

Really??

I'm not a fan myself of the 'pronouns' idea, finding it quite ridiculous, however, in a practical sense I wouldn't mind using 'they / them' about someone if that's what they wanted.

What 'moral code' is being infringed here?

I think it sounds like a lot of drama from your DD (you?) over a small number of occasions where she may need to refer to someone in the third person to others.

I think your advice however, is fine. Don't worry about inadvertent use of pronouns. Use the friend's name if that's easier.

Who does she worry she'll get in trouble with?

Also you mention your DD has been called transphobic. By whom? Why? There's no indication here that the friend is transgender?

If she is being targeted in this way, I would contact the school.

Calling people by the pronouns they choose is common curtesy. It doesn’t matter if you believe that people can change genders or not, or what your thoughts on single sex spaces are etc.

Of course mistakes might happen. Support your daughter through her fear of getting in trouble and maybe give her some stock phrases to practice in case she makes a mistake.

I don’t think it’s dramatic at all, she is feeling discomfort and cognitive dissonance around the fact she knows this is a girl but she’s being asked to act as if she believes something different. For someone who generally wants to ‘be kind’ and follow the rules that is a difficult conflict.

Op I think your advice to her is great, and reassuring her that if she makes a mistake that she’s not a bad person - even if a child calls her out on it. Maybe practice a stock reply she can say like ‘sorry, no offence meant’ and helping her be confident that if she genuinely meant no harm then she’s done absolutely nothing wrong. Keeping home a place where she can discuss how she really feels about it all and how all these difficult social pressures make her feel.

I'm a teacher and can confirm that this is all the rage. Kids talking about 'cancelling' each other and desperate to be the most up-to-date in terms of language and opinion. It's very often the most vocal children who are policing it.

I think it would be helpful for you to get a steer from the head of year on this; you can then reassure your daughter that she won't be in trouble for making a mistake around this issue. The vast majority of my colleagues would take a sensible view on this topic

Does she have to speak to her that often?

Just call her by her name.

I can totally appreciate your daughters thoughts. I’d hate being put in this situation as well. I think on most occasions it’s easy enough to just use the persons name so maybe just reassure her.

Your poor DD! A lot of adult women struggle with the prospect of dealing with strong opposition for standing by our principles on this. It's a lot easier to say what you think anonymously online.

I wouldn't use they/them pronouns for a known individual either. It's implying that I agree that if I call a person 'she' then that person has a feminine gender identity, and that the 'they' person is somehow neither male nor female. Which I think is nonsensical.

Your suggestions are sensible - avoid pronouns altogether, and just use the person's name when speaking to others.

It may be common courtesy but it is very hard to do when you are going against the evidence of your own eyes. It messes with your head. I have used other people's preferred pronouns because I did not want to cause distress to that person, but I felt like Winston in 1984 being asked to say how many fingers he could see. My teenage self might not have coped with the cognitive dissonance, coupled with the unshakeable knowledge that humans cannot change sex

she knows this is a girl but she’s being asked to act as if she believes something different

Based on the OP, she's not though? She's being asked only to use they/them pronouns in specific situations. No other behavioural or belief adjustments required

However you feel about people using different pronouns, it is polite to make an effort to use whatever they prefer. You wouldn't use their full name if they prefer a nickname. And if you did, you would catch yourself, correct and apologise.

And know your audience. She can refer to get friend as 'she' at home if that's easier, but in public use the requested pronouns.

If she's getting grief at school for slipping up, that's a matter for her teachers - I doubt it's only happening to her.

Personally I do find it all a bit daft, and I refuse to put my pronouns in my work email until I'm forced to because I don't think it serves women to point out their sex. But I will call someone what they want to be called, because that is polite.

Good post @TulipsGarden

I am not a fan of pronoun specification & don't do it myself. However, in this instance, I don't see the problem or reason for distress. I can't imagine how often OP's DD needs to use any pronouns in relation to this person - it can't be that often.

I would think though that she only needs to use they/them when talking about the friend and not to her.
So just don’t talk about her.

I can understand that it's difficult to remember and the language is awkward, but can you explain a more about the "moral code" bit? It's difficult to address without understanding why she feels the way she does.

@EarringsandLipstick

she knows this is a girl but she’s being asked to act as if she believes something different

Based on the OP, she's not though? She's being asked only to use they/them pronouns in specific situations. No other behavioural or belief adjustments required

I disagree, I think there is an expectation that everyone else believe that multiple gender identities are a scientific fact rather than a social construct. Maybe that’s an inference but why else would she get called a transphobe if she makes a mistake. That’s an indication of a belief crime so to speak. Fwiw, out of respect for that child’s belief of course I think DD should use the pronouns, but I think the pressure to believe this stuff herself is strong and unsettling.

@TulipsGarden

However you feel about people using different pronouns, it is polite to make an effort to use whatever they prefer. You wouldn't use their full name if they prefer a nickname. And if you did, you would catch yourself, correct and apologise.

And know your audience. She can refer to get friend as 'she' at home if that's easier, but in public use the requested pronouns.

If she's getting grief at school for slipping up, that's a matter for her teachers - I doubt it's only happening to her.

Personally I do find it all a bit daft, and I refuse to put my pronouns in my work email until I'm forced to because I don't think it serves women to point out their sex. But I will call someone what they want to be called, because that is polite.

Exactly this! I have two teens, one goes all out to use the latest pronouns which her friends seem to mix and match on a daily basis. The other thinks its all nonsense but humours them out of politeness in the same way you wouldn't tell a small child that Santa's not real.

@PriamFarrl

I would think though that she only needs to use they/them when talking about the friend and not to her. So just don’t talk about her.

This is sensible advice.

And if we are talking about common courtesy then it's also polite to accept the fact that people will make mistakes - or that they might hold different views to you such as not believing in gender identity - and that both parties need to be courteous and respectful of each other. Sadly that does seem to be forgotten in the righteous rush to "cancel" people for getting pronouns wrong.

@EarringsandLipstick

it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.

Really??

I'm not a fan myself of the 'pronouns' idea, finding it quite ridiculous, however, in a practical sense I wouldn't mind using 'they / them' about someone if that's what they wanted.

What 'moral code' is being infringed here?

I think it sounds like a lot of drama from your DD (you?) over a small number of occasions where she may need to refer to someone in the third person to others.

I think your advice however, is fine. Don't worry about inadvertent use of pronouns. Use the friend's name if that's easier.

Who does she worry she'll get in trouble with?

I mean its not really important in terms of what I'm asking here, but she has a strong belief that gender ideology is reinforcing sexist stereotypes. She has strong beliefs on a number of issues, eg she is vegan. It's part of her identity if you will. In terms of getting in trouble - she has already been called transphobic which is pretty shaming and upsetting. It is hanging over her that it might happen again if she makes an honest mistake on the pronouns, or that she might get talked to by the teachers. Yes there is possibly (definitely?) some over dramatising about what the consequences might be, those would be lessened if she felt able to talk or joke about it but that option isn't available, so its all building up.

@Heruka

I don’t think it’s dramatic at all, she is feeling discomfort and cognitive dissonance around the fact she knows this is a girl but she’s being asked to act as if she believes something different. For someone who generally wants to ‘be kind’ and follow the rules that is a difficult conflict.

Op I think your advice to her is great, and reassuring her that if she makes a mistake that she’s not a bad person - even if a child calls her out on it. Maybe practice a stock reply she can say like ‘sorry, no offence meant’ and helping her be confident that if she genuinely meant no harm then she’s done absolutely nothing wrong. Keeping home a place where she can discuss how she really feels about it all and how all these difficult social pressures make her feel.

Thanks. She is 100% a be kind and compliant child. The thought of being shamed as unkind or 'bad' is awful for her.

@GladysTheOstrich

I'm a teacher and can confirm that this is all the rage. Kids talking about 'cancelling' each other and desperate to be the most up-to-date in terms of language and opinion. It's very often the most vocal children who are policing it.

I think it would be helpful for you to get a steer from the head of year on this; you can then reassure your daughter that she won't be in trouble for making a mistake around this issue. The vast majority of my colleagues would take a sensible view on this topic

That is helpful and very reassuring - thank you.

Just tell her it's the way things are and no point getting worked up about this. If your dd does not have SEN she should be able to cope with saying they or using their name every time and avoiding she her.

I am a polite person and don't refer to someone as she to their face even if they are a she! My mum used to say "who's she? The cat's mother?"! To remind me to be polite.

If the girl is there then refer to her by name or address her directly. If she is not then call her they or her name.

I recently had this with a friend's children and as she talked about her daughters who are both non binary. She used they a lot and I gradually moved from saying she to they over the course of the conversation without my friend having to tell me to. I found it hard to use their new name and kept slipping up but it was important to my friends dds so made the effort.

I get that it's silly that people have to police their language but it's not something that's worth her taking a stand on as that's giving it too much attention and making it special for the child in question. They thrive on opposition. Tell your dd to not give it the oxygen of attention.

Calling people by the pronouns they choose is common curtesy

Personally, I find the entire concept of preferred pronouns deeply offensive. The idea that someone 'feels non-binary' indicates that they consider everyone else to be 'binary'. So do they think that all girls who use 'she' pronouns feel 'girlie' on the inside? Do they assume that all girls run around giggling, skipping and wearing pink? Do they think that all boys using 'he' pronouns play football, start fights and only communicate in grunts?

Asking other people to engage by using preferred pronouns is not common courtesy, it is asking people to go along with deeply sexist stereotypes (non-binary is meaningless unless you believe everyone else is binary), as well as being a denial of biological reality.

I'm sorry OP, I have no useful advice for you. I just wanted to challenge the idea that the use of preferred pronouns is common courtesy.

Speaking to your child's school is probably the best bet.

And if it were me, I'd repeat the person's name constantly rather than use pronouns at all. But that might not be the right path for your daughter to take.

Calling people by the pronouns they prefer is not common courtesy

It is enforcing gender as a primary construct , over sex which is the traditional way of using pronouns in English

Gender , the thing that says women and men differ in ways beyond reproductive biology , ergo lady brains are different to male brains,the idea which is behind the vast majority of discrimination that women face today

So no it's not polite , it's not neutral , it's offensive

Also I am thinking that her none belief in gender is a protected characteristic that should have as much respect as any transgender belief

Recent legal case , you'd have to ask the feminist board for details though

The concept that one child can force their ideological belief into another to compel another child to speak in a specific way is chilling. As adults we need to rise up and stop this before it is too late…..