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Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

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Original poster

daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

179 replies

t1lly · 30/12/2021 08:51

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

OP posts:

Looneytune253 · 30/12/2021 12:56

It's not about your daughter it's about the other child. Tell her to have some compassion for others and get on with it jeez

BackBackBack · 30/12/2021 12:56

@HandScreen

It's common courtesy to call someone what they want to be called. It is unspeakably rude, ignorant, spiteful and hurtful to do otherwise, and your daughter would do well to learn this lesson.

And where's the common courtesy in return of someone makes a genuine mistake, when the preferred term is not a natural part of our language when referring to people and therefore has to be consciously learned because it goes against taught language?

BackBackBack · 30/12/2021 12:56

@Looneytune253

It's not about your daughter it's about the other child. Tell her to have some compassion for others and get on with it jeez

Same question: where's the compassion for other people who have made genuine mistakes, or who respectfully disagree?

Whatwouldscullydo · 30/12/2021 12:58

Why?

I mean I have no idea what people call me when I'm around.

We need to stop worrying about being rude. It's what's got us in this mess of children who will face all the issues of their sex, regardless of how they feel about themselves , thinking they can just identify out of it.

Going along with pronouns means you are complicit in a belief system that is placing women and children in danger. And removing removing.words to be able to describe what happens to them. Because the feelings matter nore than reality.

It may seem.kind. but indulging a falsehood is dangerous.

TheWeeDonkey · 30/12/2021 12:58

@HandScreen

Yes, being transphobic is shameful. She shouldn't be transphobic. Any sort of bigotry is and should be considered shameful.

Is she being transphobic?

KittenKong · 30/12/2021 12:59

@HandScreen

Yes, being transphobic is shameful. She shouldn't be transphobic. Any sort of bigotry is and should be considered shameful.

How is it ‘phobic. Gender is not sex, we are our body, you can’t ‘know’ what it feels like to inhabit another body.

It’s all just hogwash for bullies.

HandScreen · 30/12/2021 13:04

But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

Whatwouldscullydo · 30/12/2021 13:05

Gender critical beliefs are protected in law.

Its not bigotry to not believe the same as others.

Original poster

t1lly · 30/12/2021 13:06

@HandScreen

Yes, being transphobic is shameful. She shouldn't be transphobic. Any sort of bigotry is and should be considered shameful.

Tell me precisely how she's being transphobic? She is 13 and trying to balance being compliant and respectful, with her own beliefs and anxieties. If either of us were transphobic we wouldn't be tying ourselves up in knots trying to reconcile those two things. Jeez. 'Be kind' sure goes out the window quick.

OP posts:

Totorosfluffytummy · 30/12/2021 13:06

Bigotry is forcing people to use made-up pronouns against their protected beliefs.
Why can't the gender-woo kids be kind to the kids who believe in sex and stop the discrimination? They're spoilt bullies using "gender-identities" as an excuse to be nasty to people who don't follow their cult.

Original poster

t1lly · 30/12/2021 13:10

@HandScreen

But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

Thank you (nearly) all for some thoughtful and thought provoking, and very helpful posts from a variety of perspectives. Over and out!

OP posts:

Whatsnewpussyhat · 30/12/2021 13:15

I too would be letting my DD know it was ok to back away from any friendship she felt was making her uncomfortable.

0blio · 30/12/2021 13:16

@GladysTheOstrich

I'm a teacher and can confirm that this is all the rage. Kids talking about 'cancelling' each other and desperate to be the most up-to-date in terms of language and opinion. It's very often the most vocal children who are policing it.

I think it would be helpful for you to get a steer from the head of year on this; you can then reassure your daughter that she won't be in trouble for making a mistake around this issue. The vast majority of my colleagues would take a sensible view on this topic

It's good to hear you take a sensible view, I hope you stamp down hard on this bullying behaviour.

Beamur · 30/12/2021 13:16

@HandScreen

But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

And you're wrong. Get off your high horse while you're at it too.

ThanksIGotItInMorrisons · 30/12/2021 13:18

I’ve had this. Told person with new pronouns to refer to me as ‘whatever’ for a day. And I reserved the right to be extremely pissed off and cancel them if they got it wrong. The whole point being, for a lifetime it’s been her/him. It’s difficult not to revert to this aster a lifetime of using this, but I’ll try my best. Failed flat in the first
Minute by saying ‘ Morrison’s you’re being unreasonable ‘. It’s cruel to pick on kids for getting this wrong. Someone needs to have a word with her friend.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 30/12/2021 13:19

She is no more being a bigot that the people who call her transphobic are. Clearly the pronouns things taps into a deeper ideology which most women think is harming women. It's not a neutral act to act as if a girl is a boy to act as if the idea of gender fluid/ non-binary is not reinforcing the binary ideas on which the ideology is built. In real life I have never met anyone binary. I don't think most people have. My son has a friend who is now believing he is a girl. My son and I have discussed it and he was the one in the end who offered the idea that the ideology on which this is built is is reinforcing stereotypes. We have agreed to call the child by his new name (people change their names all the time so really no big deal there and if we want to break down stereotypes we should not ring fence names for one or other sex) but not to use pronouns at all when talking about him. That way we do not feel coerced into supporting an ideology we feel is actively dangerous but neither do we force the child to face the reality of what he is saying (or our/ the dominant belief about this) before he is mature enough to do so. We don't want to cause offence to a child who is much a victim of gender ideology as women are.

itsgettingweird · 30/12/2021 13:21

I struggle with this - and I'm an adult!

Friends DD decided at 12 she is gender non binary.

I've referred to her as Jane (not real name) and she for 10 years. As long as I've known her.

I've just realised I'm even typing "her and she" now.

It's really hard and doesn't make sense grammatically to say "they/them".

"How is Jane doing at school. Are they enjoying Latin still?". Switching to "Are they" in my mind feels like switching to talking about another person.

I try really hard to get it right. My friend appreciates this. She doesn't correct me when I'm wrong. I have no idea if that's because she still sees her dd as a she or not?

I agree with talking to school. Explain how much this is causing dd anxiety. Especially because others are using incorrect terms to call her phobic when that's not her intention.

I find it especially hard because I'm female. Therefore I see myself as a she. But I'm also not a stereotypical female in my dress sense or interests. Just because I'm not gender conforming in a way society expects woman to behave doesn't make me less of a woman. I feel sad for girls/woman who feel they have to denounce being a she/her to behave in a certain way.

Whatwouldscullydo · 30/12/2021 13:22

It’s cruel to pick on kids for getting this wrong. Someone needs to have a word with her friend

I would definitely be worried about the Internet here. Plenty of people online who are using the trans cause to help alienate children from their friends and family. Telling them that refusing to use pronouns means that they are hateful and don't care about them. And then lovebombing the child. Affirming with pronouns etc and offering to be their new glitter family.

Its not the harmless craze people think.

Gumbomambo · 30/12/2021 13:25

Am I reading this right? Someone is calling a confused and anxious 13 a bullying bigot? Right here on this thread. No wonder your daughter is terrified OP we can see the tolerance and support for a young person right here. I really hope your daughters ok, it all feels like good old fashioned peer pressure to be one of the cool kids.

debwong · 30/12/2021 13:26

What a crazy world we have entered.

@t1lly Your daughter sounds awesome.

KittenKong · 30/12/2021 13:27

12? I remember asking my dad if I could get a dog when I was that age and he said no because I was too young to be responsible for looking after it.

TheWeeDonkey · 30/12/2021 13:29

@HandScreen

But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

I think you missed the bit where you're talking about a 13 year old girl, or does #bekind only go one way?

ErrolTheDragon · 30/12/2021 13:34

@HandScreen

But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

Definition of 'bigot' a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.

....I don't think that remotely applies to the OPs DD.

catbsfhs · 30/12/2021 13:34

Your daughter is being asked to use two very common words (they and them) in the very few situations that she'd have to refer to the friend in third person. I'm assuming the non-binary child is also around the age of 13. Perhaps they aren't at the stage of having the same nuanced opinions as your daughter. Perhaps they simply disagree with your daughter. It's not really up to your daughter to dictate if the way her friend chooses to identify is valid imo. I agree that sexist stereotypes play a big part in these new non-binary identities and I don't fully understand why pronouns need to be changed in order to present gender in a different way or be genderless (I understand medically transitioning if transgender as body dysphoria plays a huge part in the feeling of being trapped in the wrong body) however I disagree with your daughter disrespecting her friend. She is being intolerant. I have NB friends and if I slip up and use the incorrect pronouns when referring to them, a quick apology and correction is absolutely fine. There is no need to fret that her friend will get hysterical over a genuine mistake (they'd be a bit unreasonable to do that). The friend has a right to be offended at your daughter (and you) deliberately invalidating them. It's like you're deliberately trying to upset the child to make a point. If the friend was changing pronouns everyday or wanted to be referred to as ze/zem then I'd sympathise with the hysteria a bit more.

KittenKong · 30/12/2021 13:37

I assume your friends are adults and understand sex Vs gender.

But this won’t be one kid in the year will it? So kids have to remember every preference and name change, and get it right or the ‘mean girls’ will have a pop and bully her?

Stuff that for a game of soldiers.

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