daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

[t1lly]

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

@KittenKong

Oh and the whole ‘when you refer to me’ - so if the kid isn’t there and someone says ‘she’ then they run off to snitch? All sounds ‘little red guard’ to me.

That's the problem - pronoun enforcement isn't necessarily being done out of any respect for the trans or 'nonbinary' identifying child, but merely as a means of bullying.

Yup. ‘Be kind’ my bahookie.

If my teenage niece’s experiences are anything to go by, next it will a nearly 6ft male telling everyone they are now a teenage girl, demanding they use girls changing rooms/loos and that you address them as she/her.

We should be telling teenage girls the answer is “No!” to all of that.

I get confused with the plural aspect of it. It just doesn’t make grammatical sense. I wish there were branded new words to use. It would be much easier.

Brand

Using preferred pronouns isn’t reinforcing stereotypes, it is just respecting someone else’s views on the subject.

Whatever your views on women changing title on marriage, you would not write a professional letter to ‘Mrs Jones’ to ‘Ms Jones’.

Personally, I think veganism is a load of old tosh, but I would not serve a nice steak to a vegan, regardless of my personal views.

I have a teen DD who also is uncomfortable with gender ideology.
She uses friends preferred pronouns and talks to me about things she doesn't think would sit well with her peers.
She has the maturity and grace to be considerate to others without changing her own views. I personally would say it's not different to showing some respect to someone who follows a faith if you are an atheist.
I have always said to her that there is a difference between the personal and the structural nature of issues within feminism and this is a good example of that. She has to live in the world and these are her friends.
She may not agree with them, but she would prefer not to do so publicly. In today's climate and the already febrile nature of high school I think this is sensible.
I don't think the heavy lifting on this issue for women is fair to put on such young shoulders.

I notice here that the "respect" towards peoples feelings only very seems to go one way: "respect the pronouns " of the NB child, never mind the other child's own beliefs and feelings.

I have a daughter slightly older than the OP's daughter. Loads of trans and NB kids in her year group. There's a definite risk of social ostracism if anyone inadvertently "misgenders" someone else. It's very closely policed by the other kids: "OMG Katy! I can't believe you just called Harrison 'she' OMG everyone, Katy just called Harrison 'she'. That's so horrible and mean". (Harrison may well have been a girl called Charlotte until the previous week). Dd tries to use preferred pronouns even though she thinks it a nonsense, but mistakes are easily made if one isn't constantly on one's guard.

The thing is at this age the dc involved don't understand it themselves. She's being called transphobic because they don't really know what half of it means but are taking part anyway. We've had similar. Dd who was just 11 til last week has been coming home talking about a classmate who gets offended but everything she's described is so contradictory and this child is constantly changing the goalposts. Dd said she just laughs at them now when they annoyed and says 'well what do you expect, I'm confused'. This child takes it a step further by dressing extremely typically 'girly' while denying being female (she is) and using the unisex but more typically male shortened version of her name. Terms such as transphobic are thrown around a lot apparently - they simply don't understand what it actually means it's just the in thing just now and a pp I think hit the nail in the head where it's dc who are craving attention and in the past would have displayed this via other behaviours instead

@Yuledo

I get confused with the plural aspect of it. It just doesn’t make grammatical sense. I wish there were branded new words to use. It would be much easier.

There are a whole set of new words, you can google them. If that logic was applies the Speaker needs to remember the person's name and special pronoun, which totally defeats the purpose of having a simple replacement word for a name.

DD is 18 and one of her friends decided they wanted to be known as they/them. Of anyone forgets they mention it really sharply and aggressively. As a result they have lost friends as a slip of the tongue or just forgetting and using the same language they have for years becomes a big stressful deal.

There are loads of new pronouns and sexual orientations - just made up, word spaghetti.

So if a classmate demands everyone refers to them as ‘bun /bunself’, that would be absolutely fine (and of course it has to be delivered with an absolutely straight face, hint of not being a full on believer).

I notice here that the "respect" towards peoples feelings only very seems to go one way: "respect the pronouns " of the NB child, never mind the other child's own beliefs and feelings.

I’m sure the DD would want her friends to respect her over her veganism.
They don’t need to agree with it and could secretly think she’s being ridiculous but as her friends they need to be respectful of her choices.

It would be different if they were asking her to call them him which may be difficult for her but most people say ‘they’ when talking about someone so it’s not a big deal.

I’ve been a veggie since 1984 and still ‘get no respect’ from my brother who asks me every time I see him if I want a bacon sandwich. I don’t demand that everyone around me abstains from non-veggie foods, discussions about meaty foods, and ditch their leather shoes and belts around me (lest I have a massive hissy fit and cancel the lot of them).

My dd is a vegan and absolutely does not get shown "respect" for her beliefs by all of her friends (although in fairness, some are fine).

The vegan analogy breaks down however when one realises that few vegans go around trying to police what other people eat even when they aren't there, let alone expect them to act as if meat and dairy products don't even exist.

Use of "preferred pronouns " is compelled speech. It's chilling and it brings to mind the early days of the Cultural Revolution in China.

For me it boils down to to basic grammar, They / them is pleural. I struggle to wrap my head around addressing an individual with a pleural Pronoun. I just can't engrain it into my vernacular. Nothing transphobic about that, it strikes me as poor English, hijacked for a use it was never intended for.

My dd is a vegan and absolutely does not get shown "respect" for her beliefs by all of her friends (although in fairness, some are fine).

But then that’s for your DD to decide whether she wants to remain friends with people who aren’t respectful of her choices.

It’s learning how to be tolerant and respectful in a multi-cultural society where everyone has different beliefs. Which is very difficult to do if it clashes with your beliefs.

Teens go through many fads.
I remember having a vegetarian phase, a goth phase, a witch, a chav phase and God knows what else. And most of the time your friends just go along with it like you do with their fads even if you think they’re idiots for doing it.
As long as it’s not hurting anyone.

@WonderfulYou,

Your daughter may not be a proselytising vegan, but I assure you there are plenty about, always talking about ‘dead animals’ when you are trying to enjoy a rare roast beef, and how you are destroying the planet (mostly from a totally hypocritical position).

I think policing one’s own pronouns is fine, policing others strays into busybody territory. Although, you are not obliged to use pronouns at all if using their name is easier.

@WonderfulYou

Where it falls down is that she would probably joke about the poor moo cow to a good friend when collecting their Big Mac grin there is no outlet like that for joking or even respectfully discussing on this issue which is why she's possibly over reacting etc etc.

The friend eating the burger probably wouldn’t find it as funny though.

DD might not find it as funny if a meat eater was having banter with her about how she’s a sheep latching on to a new fad (or whatever the insults for vegans are now).

If her friend had recently come out as gay you wouldn’t start joking about it straight away. It takes time for the friend to be comfortable enough to do that and it would be the friend who initiated the banter, not your DD.

I think you need to be very careful when having a laugh, especially with someone who is obviously quite insecure with themselves.

She does sometimes get the mickey taken out of her about being vegan. She is often bought presents (jelly beans, hot choc stirrers) that she has to throw away because they contain gelatine and she can't eat them. She would never dream of being ungrateful or 'shaming' the friend that has gifted them.

There is nothing offensive about using the correct pronouns based on sex, as we have always done.
Your daughter's friends should respect her beliefs and not be such bigots. Sex is after all a protected characteristic. Nobody can be forced to use someone's "preferred pronouns" and trying to force this is a form of harassment and discrimination.

My DD (13) has a close friend who wants people to use they/them but as it goes against my daughter's protected belief in sex she just uses her friend's name in front of the gender-woo kids (they can be really nasty) and uses she/her when with normal people.

@WonderfulYou

My dd is a vegan and absolutely does not get shown "respect" for her beliefs by all of her friends (although in fairness, some are fine).

But then that’s for your DD to decide whether she wants to remain friends with people who aren’t respectful of her choices.

It’s learning how to be tolerant and respectful in a multi-cultural society where everyone has different beliefs. Which is very difficult to do if it clashes with your beliefs.

Teens go through many fads.
I remember having a vegetarian phase, a goth phase, a witch, a chav phase and God knows what else. And most of the time your friends just go along with it like you do with their fads even if you think they’re idiots for doing it.
As long as it’s not hurting anyone.

You can articulate that you think humans are designed to be carnivores and vegans are idiots and no one is going to care or be very upset. This issue is not the same.I think that's the part of the problem, there is no option to even discuss it without fear of being called a bigot. It seems the consensus is shut up and go along with it, which is pragmatic and practical but I can't but help feel is unsustainable and unhealthy for everyone involved.

I think.if a friend has become so controlling that they control the conversation even when not around then that's a friend your dd doesn't need tbh.

This time it's a friend. Next time it won't be and pronouns well they change the conversation completely. They change what is happening. It completely refrains the situation and stops awareness if whaT is actually going on.

Tell your dd its ok to walk away.

Schools should really make it clear to children that they do not have to use incorrect pronouns.
Ask the school what they are doing about it. It's possible they are ignorant about the facts as my daughter's head teacher was. Your daughter won't be the only one feeling anxious about this.

It's common courtesy to call someone what they want to be called. It is unspeakably rude, ignorant, spiteful and hurtful to do otherwise, and your daughter would do well to learn this lesson.

Yes, being transphobic is shameful. She shouldn't be transphobic. Any sort of bigotry is and should be considered shameful.