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Original poster

daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

179 replies

t1lly · 30/12/2021 08:51

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

OP posts:
BackBackBack · 30/12/2021 09:36

Brava @EdgeOfACoin and @bordermidgebite you have both articulated what I feel about this, really clearly.

BackBackBack · 30/12/2021 09:37

@bordermidgebite yes it was Maya Forstarter's case. Belief in biological sex being immutable.

People seem to forget that biological sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act whereas gender identity is not.

Somebodylikeyew · 30/12/2021 09:38

I 100% agree with her but sadly, most secondary schools are not safe spaces to hold these views right now.

I would advise her to just avoid talking about the person as much as humanly possible and just refer to them by name when they can’t avoid it.

JackTheHack · 30/12/2021 09:40

@underneaththeash

Does she have to speak to her that often?

Just call her by her name.

"Does she have to speak to them that often?

Just call them by their name"

Lol!!! This is how bloody ridiculous it has all become. Just another stick to hit our poor kids with. I suggest if the person your daughter may upset gets upset, then your daughter shouldn't go anywhere near the poor darling

Southbucksldn · 30/12/2021 09:40

I think the friendship needs a bit of distance. Using preferred pronouns is obviously polite but if it is a struggle there is no point upsetting everything.
These discussions and identities are just about kids who don’t have any real interests (probably apart from reading nonsense on the internet). Once other kids realise this it takes away the power and interest.
Lots of kids just need attention and another interest and once this phase is over they will grow out of it.

NoNameHere12 · 30/12/2021 09:41

They/them is in reference to more than one person, I’m not changing my language and talking gibberish because some teenagers have said so

Original poster
t1lly · 30/12/2021 09:42

@ColdShouldersWarmTummy

I can understand that it's difficult to remember and the language is awkward, but can you explain a more about the "moral code" bit? It's difficult to address without understanding why she feels the way she does.
She just doesn't believe in any of it. She thinks its reinforcing stereotypes to say you are non binary - to her you are just a girl however you dress, whatever you like etc. And she's had being honest and speaking your mind about something you feel is wrong drilled into her from being a toddler because I never wanted her to be a bystander to bullying etc. That has come back to bite us on the butt! There is some good advice here, thanks everyone.
OP posts:
HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 30/12/2021 09:42

Is it possible for her to try not to talk about this person at all and just refer to their name when she does?

“John said that John would like to work in the group with us. Shall we ask John if John still is keen on that?”

TheWeeDonkey · 30/12/2021 09:42

@PriamFarrl

I would think though that she only needs to use they/them when talking about the friend and not to her. So just don’t talk about her.
Good advice.
SoupDragon · 30/12/2021 09:42

She's being asked to use pronouns that don't indicate gender, not use ones for the opposite sex. It's no different to the title "Mx" (which is probably only used by women anyway)

girafferafferaffe · 30/12/2021 09:45

(which is probably only used by women anyway)

I know a male who uses Mx. They're a teacher as well so the kids have to use it.

mildtomoderate · 30/12/2021 09:48

Another thread inviting people to be openly transphobic, very loosely centred around an 'issue'. So sick of these threads.

ColdShouldersWarmTummy · 30/12/2021 09:50

Tbh then I think it has to be a lesson in tolerance. She's vegan, but hopefully wouldn't refuse to collect a meat sandwich for a friend (or whatever). Similarly she needs to know that she can disagree with the pronouns thing but still be polite and refer to this person how they choose. Of course she should also be reassured that if she makes a mistake she won't be ostracised. I agree with pps suggesting to talk to the school on that point.

Holly60 · 30/12/2021 09:51

Is this a post about what people believe re gender ideology or is it a post asking for advice for your daughter in this specific situation?

My honest advice for your daughter, in this situation, would be to try to remember to use the child’s preferred pronouns when she absolutely can’t avoid it. Encourage her to see that this is not a rejection of her own beliefs. She can hold her own beliefs at the same time as making a friend feel comfortable. There will be many instances in life where she will have to do this in order to get on well in life. For example, I am a very strong advocate for breastfeeding and ‘know’ beyond doubt that children who are breastfed get a better deal than children who aren’t. However, when friends told me they weren’t breastfeeding because formula is exactly the same, I didn’t jump in and correct them, I just nodded and smiled.

Original poster
t1lly · 30/12/2021 09:52

@Southbucksldn

I think the friendship needs a bit of distance. Using preferred pronouns is obviously polite but if it is a struggle there is no point upsetting everything. These discussions and identities are just about kids who don’t have any real interests (probably apart from reading nonsense on the internet). Once other kids realise this it takes away the power and interest. Lots of kids just need attention and another interest and once this phase is over they will grow out of it.
this is good advice, thanks.
OP posts:
BackBackBack · 30/12/2021 09:52

@mildtomoderate

Another thread inviting people to be openly transphobic, very loosely centred around an 'issue'. So sick of these threads.
Where is the transphobia? If you see it you should report to MNHQ and they will delete.

However they won't delete open debate about an issue which needs to be talked about. It is not transphobia to challenge gender identity on the basis of biological sex - which is a belief protected in law.

EarringsandLipstick · 30/12/2021 09:53

@t1lly

But based on what you've said, the inky thing your DD is being asked to do is use 'they / them' in certain, limited situations.

She can avoid this by using the other student's name, or not talking about them much.

I accept the points about the wider issues around gender identity (which I agree with too - biological sex is immutable, imo) however I don't see why using preferred pronouns in this instance and way describes can or should cause such angst.

My DD is roughly the same age and encounters this, a little. (I'm in Ireland and this whole topic is less an issue (as in both happening) in schools & teen life here. Thankfully). Like a PP's daughter, she just nods to what's asked of her, without seeing it as any indicator of her own beliefs on sex / gender.

If your DD is being called transphobic however (and it's not clear why she should be) then you should address that with the school, absolutely.

ColdShouldersWarmTummy · 30/12/2021 09:53

(and I say that as a life long veggie who was very holier than thou at school Grin Learning to be tolerant definitely made my life easier)

EarringsandLipstick · 30/12/2021 09:53

@ColdShouldersWarmTummy

Tbh then I think it has to be a lesson in tolerance. She's vegan, but hopefully wouldn't refuse to collect a meat sandwich for a friend (or whatever). Similarly she needs to know that she can disagree with the pronouns thing but still be polite and refer to this person how they choose. Of course she should also be reassured that if she makes a mistake she won't be ostracised. I agree with pps suggesting to talk to the school on that point.
That's very well put.
Original poster
t1lly · 30/12/2021 09:53

@mildtomoderate

Another thread inviting people to be openly transphobic, very loosely centred around an 'issue'. So sick of these threads.
Certainly not my intention. I gave info about my daughter's beliefs as background to why she was finding it hard, when asked, I didn't offer it up as it's not relevant really. It's hard to talk about things like this minus context but sorry you feel that way.
OP posts:
EarringsandLipstick · 30/12/2021 09:54

Encourage her to see that this is not a rejection of her own beliefs. She can hold her own beliefs at the same time as making a friend feel comfortable.

That's an excellent, well-made point.

Holly60 · 30/12/2021 09:56

Also just remind her that just because she holds these strong beliefs, it doesn’t make her ‘right’. Arguably there is no right or wrong in this debate, just polarised beliefs. So she doesn’t have to compromise what she believes, she just needs to recognise that others hold similarly strong beliefs in the other direction, and that they are not ‘wrong’ any more than she is.

stingofthebutterfly · 30/12/2021 09:57

Personally, I'd just call her she and not be bothered about any backlash because it's all bloody stupid, but I appreciate it's not that easy for a 13 year old.

I think the only thing she can do is to try and avoid pronouns altogether, and call this girl by her name. Children of this age need to see peers who won't pander to their fads, and the more children that do that, the more normal it'll become to be normal. Hopefully then, all of this crap will disappear.

EarringsandLipstick · 30/12/2021 09:57

It is not transphobia to challenge gender identity on the basis of biological sex - which is a belief protected in law.

Agreed.

However, there's no question that this thread is about that. All OP asked about was use of 'they/them' pronouns. There's no indication that the student in question is transgender.

I know of teens in my DD's year group who use pronouns in a certain way & are not trans. Usually the school & everyone around them lets them get on with it. No need for over-stating a situation that most likely doesn't exist.

EarringsandLipstick · 30/12/2021 09:58

Personally, I'd just call her she and not be bothered about any backlash because it's all bloody stupid,

That's offensive, and so intolerant.