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Original poster

daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

179 replies

t1lly · 30/12/2021 08:51

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

OP posts:
KittenKong · 05/01/2022 17:47

Pronouns are sex based and not gender based surely.

Notwithittoday · 05/01/2022 17:51

Agree with other posters. Give it as little airtime as possible, both you and your daughter. Use her name if necessary but otherwise avoid talking about her. No school is going to be reprimanding your daughter for getting it wrong

bordermidgebite · 05/01/2022 19:07

Your daughter dies not have to get used to it at all

Neither does she have to pray because someone else believes it's important

waltzingparrot · 05/01/2022 19:18

I would email her tutor and lay it all out as you have above, explain how it is affecting your daughter and ask for their advice on how this modern phenomenon should be handled.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 05/01/2022 19:26

@ErynIsTrans

Your daughter will get used to it. She should talk to the person privately and explain that she isn't used to it, but will do the best that she can. If she gets it wrong, she should correct herself and move on. I don't use my birth pronouns, and if anyone gets it wrong, I don't get mad, I correct them and we move on. If this is the first non-binary person that she has met, of course its going to take a while, but its a learning curve for us all. However, if this is going against her moral code or whatever, that is transphobia, and you might want to suggest either not being friends with the person, or seriously having a think about why it troubles her so much. This situation isn't about her, its about the person who has bravely come out, if it makes them comfortable, then we need to accommodate to them. This is not the last trans person that your daughter will meet, and she needs to understand how to make them feel comfortable and welcome. Her classmate will experience a lot of discrimination throughout their life, and you need to educate your daughter to make sure she is not contributing to that.
Should the OP's daughter just prostrate themselves at their 'friend's' feet and swear fealty to the hallowed blue/pink flag for ever and ever??

And become a flagellant, just in case she step out of line with the pronouns and isn't making the 'friend' feel 100% comfortable at all times.

Listen to yourself!

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 05/01/2022 20:24

Of course it's not the first non binary person she's met. Just about everyone is non binary. I've yet to meet a binary person.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 20:44

of course not, that would be ridiculous, and its not a cult lmao but what if everyone at that school started using he/him pronouns for OP's daughter? Then it would be about her, and she and her mother would want everyone to go back to using she/her and making her as comfortable as possible! At the end of the day, its not about OP's daughter in this situation. She should be brought up to be kind respectful and inclusive, not uncomfortable with someone else's identity.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 20:45

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Of course it's not the first non binary person she's met. Just about everyone is non binary. I've yet to meet a binary person.
have you never met a man or a woman? they are on the gender binary. If you have never met a man or a woman then wow i would love to live in your world
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 05/01/2022 20:47

I can't answer whether I've met a man or woman without a definition of what you mean by that. I've met people who are biological men and women but no one who identifies as a man or woman.

Keepitonthedownlow · 05/01/2022 20:54

Not read the whole thread but can you liken it to her to religious belief? So say she has a Muslim friend she might where a headscarf and need to pray (for example) and your DD would respect that. I don't believe in gender ideology but I'm starting to treat it in the same way I would treat a religious belief. Internally I have my own opinion but i don't bring it up.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 05/01/2022 20:57

E.g I've met no one who the female end of the binary, for example, well describes them and their identity. Everyone I know feels that some aspects of stereotypical male fits with them aswell as some aspects of stereotypical female. I would be fascinated to meet someone who feels all female as per current societal constructions of that. Might not happen though as I don't gsnerally mix with people with more conservative 'old fashioned' views.

Lacedwithgrace · 05/01/2022 21:02

Your daughter will mange to call them the right pronouns. Children learn all their classmate's names and manage to remember who's a girl, who's a boy so why can't they remember to refer to someone as they/them? It's not that difficult, unless of course she's too precious to cope 🙂

CoastalWave · 05/01/2022 21:03

@stingofthebutterfly

Personally, I'd just call her she and not be bothered about any backlash because it's all bloody stupid, but I appreciate it's not that easy for a 13 year old.

I think the only thing she can do is to try and avoid pronouns altogether, and call this girl by her name. Children of this age need to see peers who won't pander to their fads, and the more children that do that, the more normal it'll become to be normal. Hopefully then, all of this crap will disappear.

Thank christ for one person who has common sense on this thread.

The world is going bloody mad and we're pandering to it.

bordermidgebite · 05/01/2022 21:03

Man adult human male

Yip I met plenty of them
Not getting the gender none binary potential there

Chimera?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 05/01/2022 21:04

Why?

I mean I have no idea what people call me when I'm around.

We need to stop worrying about being rude. It's what's got us in this mess of children who will face all the issues of their sex, regardless of how they feel about themselves , thinking they can just identify out of it.

Going along with pronouns means you are complicit in a belief system that is placing women and children in danger. And removing removing.words to be able to describe what happens to them. Because the feelings matter nore than reality.

It may seem.kind. but indulging a falsehood is dangerous.

/////

This. This is what is really unspeakably rude, ignorant, spiteful and lacking in compassion.

Kotatsu · 05/01/2022 21:10

Children learn all their classmate's names and manage to remember who's a girl, who's a boy so why can't they remember to refer to someone as they/them?

Because for the last 9 years she's been taught that girls are she and boys are he (and strangers of unknown sex can be they) - names have always been different for everyone, but changing a basic grammatical rule for one person is extremely difficult.

It's not that difficult, unless of course she's too precious to cope 🙂

Yes it is. Lets just say that, as a different example, whenever you were talking about the tea that just one friend has, you have to call it coffee. So if you make a pot, and you're handing out to your mates, you go 'here's your tea Susan, here's your tea John, here's your coffee Eric' - and of course if Eric asks for a coffee, you have to remember it's actually a cup of tea - do you think you might slip up? Do you think that you'd find it weird and tricky? Because I know I would.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 21:13

@Kotatsu

Children learn all their classmate's names and manage to remember who's a girl, who's a boy so why can't they remember to refer to someone as they/them?

Because for the last 9 years she's been taught that girls are she and boys are he (and strangers of unknown sex can be they) - names have always been different for everyone, but changing a basic grammatical rule for one person is extremely difficult.

It's not that difficult, unless of course she's too precious to cope 🙂

Yes it is. Lets just say that, as a different example, whenever you were talking about the tea that just one friend has, you have to call it coffee. So if you make a pot, and you're handing out to your mates, you go 'here's your tea Susan, here's your tea John, here's your coffee Eric' - and of course if Eric asks for a coffee, you have to remember it's actually a cup of tea - do you think you might slip up? Do you think that you'd find it weird and tricky? Because I know I would.

Its okay to slip up! Most likely the classmate won't mind, and just correct her and move on, its not a big deal. Its when it becomes purposeful misgendering that it becomes a problem.
TinyRebel · 05/01/2022 21:14

Your daughter sounds awesome, with a mature head on her shoulders. Having her speech policed by her 'friends' can't be much fun.
I'd just encourage her to rip off the plaster now - and tell them she doesn't believe in gender woo and will use the pronouns relevant to a person's sex.
Took my almost 15 year old somewhere the other day and we had to fill out an electronic form. She said "I'm not one of the pronoun people mum, how do I do this bit?"
With any luck your daughter's year group will grow out of it soon and find another way to make themselves feel special and control the people around them.

Kotatsu · 05/01/2022 21:15

Its okay to slip up! Most likely the classmate won't mind, and just correct her and move on, its not a big deal. Its when it becomes purposeful misgendering that it becomes a problem.

But it's not 'correct' and it's not 'misgendering' - in English, we grammatically gender based on sex, not on internal feelings or souls (what with them being hidden and all). Using sex based gender for someone should always be acceptable, as it's a language fundamental.

GrannytoaUnicorn · 05/01/2022 21:20

I can't wait until this nonsense trend is over!

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 05/01/2022 21:24

It's only misgendering if we believe gender to be unrelated to biological sex and if we did we have no basis to assume anyone's pronouns. If we can't assume pronouns then actually we just need to use the person's name and pronouns have no meaning. At the moment there seems to be a hideous assumption that you can assume someone who appears to be a woman can be called she unless she objects. Meaning people in other countries, for example, who are being discussed on the news have lost the right to define themselves. That's why pronouns should never be conflated with identity. If we did believe that they were we should not talk about what's happening to women in Afghanistan as we no way of knowing if they are women. I refuse to silence 50% of the population in this way.

Flapjak · 05/01/2022 21:26

I find it offensive and far from polite that another persons expectations are that i should use their preferred pronouns , to another person. If someone demands to be called sarah one day, jane the next, tom the day after etc etc this is submitting to narcissistic demands, and those who who claim to being polite are really acting as bystanders to bullying and coercive behaviour

Bobholll · 05/01/2022 21:32

Some people are complete knobs on here.

Just use they/them. It’s NOT hard. It’s polite. Get over yourselves. It’s 2022.

Get your daughter to watch Queer Eye, OP. Jonathan is non binary & explains it really well in the new series. He says it’s completely OK to make mistakes with pronouns & it’s always OK to ask.

You don’t have to agree or even understand. Just be polite to the person in question.

You are binary if you identify as male or female. I identify as female, thus I am binary. I’m also biologically a woman.

It’s really not hard.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 21:33

@Flapjak

I find it offensive and far from polite that another persons expectations are that i should use their preferred pronouns , to another person. If someone demands to be called sarah one day, jane the next, tom the day after etc etc this is submitting to narcissistic demands, and those who who claim to being polite are really acting as bystanders to bullying and coercive behaviour
when a girl comes up to you and says hi! im a girl, would you call her a him? no you would call her she. that is using her preferred pronouns, even if she is not trans/non-binary
bordermidgebite · 05/01/2022 21:37

When a girl comes up to you and says hi I'm a girl

Never happened to me yet that anyone had needed to do this

Hi I'm Sam .
Because gender should not define anyone