daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

[t1lly]

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

But how far do you go?

If you teach a girl especially that pronouns are a polite courtesy blah blah blah

What happens when she's then confronted with an adult male she doesn't know insisistong hes a she ? How does she describe her discomfort amd fear if she cant describe what she sees?

Why are we making children responsible for thr mental health of others. That's the parents/adults job.

The friends are invalidating the DDs view of gender and it's links with the evils which women around the globe are, and will continue to, experience. It's really not a simple matter of 'do things the way the friend wants' and I honestly think that anyone who says that has not really understood what is going on. You can come down on one or other side of this heated debate but if you think it's as simple as 'be nice to people who support gender ideology' that's not right.

Also if someone mentions a friend in conversation and we don't know their gender, we'd often refer to the unknown person with they/them pronouns despite them being a singular person. So it doesn't sound particularly weird or grammatically incorrect to do this with someone who has asked that you use those pronouns.

Gender is a lot of hooey though. I don’t agree that it is the ‘essence of a person’.

@catbsfhs

Also if someone mentions a friend in conversation and we don't know their gender, we'd often refer to the unknown person with they/them pronouns despite them being a singular person. So it doesn't sound particularly weird or grammatically incorrect to do this with someone who has asked that you use those pronouns.

Of course it does. If you know them, you know what sex they are. It's akin to never using the name of someone you know but trying to describe them in convoluted ways instead (the tall one who likes to wear beige and is usually a bit late for things - oh, you mean your husband...).

I'm trying to make the point that some posters are leaping right into a 'trans' dialogue when there's no evidence that this is the issue here at all.

People who call themselves "they/them" are transgender. "Non binary" falls under the transgender umbrella used by Stonewall etc.

Also if someone mentions a friend in conversation and we don't know their gender, we'd often refer to the unknown person with they/them pronouns despite them being a singular person. So it doesn't sound particularly weird or grammatically incorrect to do this with someone who has asked that you use those pronouns

Why are you letting people regardless of how much or little you know them.be the sole focus like this.

If your child had a girlfriend/boyfriend who constantly made them have to think about what they say how they say it lest s/he's upset etc you'd tell them.straoght how abusive their partner was surely?

No one should be walking on.eggshells this way around people. Either they have major issues which the adults around them should be seeking help for in terms of being responsible fir their own well being and the tools to deal with aspects of reality that upsets them.

Or they are abusive or being enabled to be abusive by others who should know better.

Either way a so called friends reaction to reality is not your problem.

One of my friends children who is still at high school told me last year that it was very much the kids that were boring who were kicking off about pronouns because they were trying to make themselves interesting.

What a crazy world we live in?
Your poor daughter must feel the world has turned upside down.
It all seems a crazy fashion that is confusing many people.
I'm so sorry for your daughter. I'm sure the teachers will help her if they're informed.
Best of luck!

I think.if a friend has become so controlling that they control the conversation even when not around then that's a friend your dd doesn't need tbh.

This time it's a friend. Next time it won't be and pronouns well they change the conversation completely. They change what is happening. It completely refrains the situation and stops awareness if whaT is actually going on.

Tell your dd its ok to walk away.

Good advice.

HandScreen 12:53
It's common courtesy to call someone what they want to be called. It is unspeakably rude, ignorant, spiteful and hurtful to do otherwise, and your daughter would do well to learn this lesson.

HandScreen 12:54
Yes, being transphobic is shameful. She shouldn't be transphobic. Any sort of bigotry is and should be considered shameful.

HandScreen 13:04
But the OP says the daughter isn't making a mistake, she's being a bigot because that's what she believes. Absolutely unacceptable.

The 13 year old girl must be taught to comply.
Obey others without question.
Deny her herself and offer to be a support human valadating the beliefs of a random child in her school.

So nice to #bekind

catbsfhs
Also if someone mentions a friend in conversation and we don't know their gender, we'd often refer to the unknown person with they/them pronouns despite them being a singular person. So it doesn't sound particularly weird or grammatically incorrect to do this with someone who has asked that you use those pronouns.

She and he are sex indicators, as in she = human with vulva or he = human with penis.
In English they singular is used to indicate that the sex of the human is unknown. If one speaker knows the sex of the human the pronoun for sex is used as it conveys a point of information.
A single animal of unknown sex may be referred to as an it. Using it for a human is being extremely rude, but they for a human can be nuance of language.
Singular they conveys human sex specific information about a lack of familiarity with the person, however when a speaker uses they for human who's sex is known it can indicate social distancing.

My requesting you use my choice of third party pronouns is an act of control. I get to control how you are allowed to describe me when I am not there.

It is common courtesy not to shove your beliefs down someone else's throat

It is common courtesy not to make someone else feel uncomfortable around you

Once common courtesy has been broken there is no obligation for the other party to oblige

I personally feel that non binary gender identity is controlling and narcissistic. Everyone is "non binary". No one is a walking sex stereotype. And that is all it is based on, not identifying with sexist stereotypes and thinking you've broken the mould, and other people are just ordinary and stereotype bound with humdrum lives, not special and unique like you.

As pp said, pronouns are getting more wacky with a need to stand out and be ever more fascinatingly different. Would the #bekind fans on this thread really take it upon themselves to remember the individual unique neopronouns of say ten people and would enjoy being lectured and/or called transphobic when they inevitably slipped up?

The whole pronouns issue is bollocks. A person has the right, to a degree, to ask people call them directly with whatever name they like. So if Steve henceforth wants people to call him Stevie, there's perhaps some merit in that.

But nobody can dictate how people refer to them when talking to others about them. This is just madness and entitlement galore.

They / them doesn't make much sense in the singular really so I can see why it is difficult. I guess just advise her to try her best and it will gradually become normal.

It's a blinking minefield! Bless her, and them!

@Just10moreminutesplease

Calling people by the pronouns they choose is common curtesy. It doesn’t matter if you believe that people can change genders or not, or what your thoughts on single sex spaces are etc.

Of course mistakes might happen. Support your daughter through her fear of getting in trouble and maybe give her some stock phrases to practice in case she makes a mistake.

Sensible advice here

Calling people by the pronouns they choose is common curtesy. It doesn’t matter if you believe that people can change genders or not, or what your thoughts on single sex spaces are etc

“Doesn’t matter”?

So the only views that matter are those of the person who’s insisting that everyone use their chosen pronouns?

Such shocking entitlement and intolerance of other people’s views is simply unacceptable.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm trying to make the point that some posters are leaping right into a 'trans' dialogue when there's no evidence that this is the issue here at all.

People who call themselves "they/them" are transgender. "Non binary" falls under the transgender umbrella used by Stonewall etc.

Nonsense.

I've no idea what Stonewall says but people who use 'they/them' pronouns or describe themselves as non-binary are absolutely not all transgender. They would not necessarily describe themselves as such.

And there's zero evidence of it being the case here.

I suppose it depends on why the think they are a they/them rather than a he/him or she/her (which is a weird way to consider yourself). But the stonewall umbrella does cover a wide range of ideas - as does the mermaids ‘are you barbie or or GI Joe’

In that case they should talk, communicate

Because the message the dd in the OP has is that she is considered transphobic if she doesn't use the pronouns

Why do they want those pronouns
Why are they so important to them
Do they understand why it makes sone people uncomfortable

Perhaps you could give examples of the none transgender use of they pronouns

I've no idea what Stonewall says but people who use 'they/them' pronouns or describe themselves as non-binary are absolutely not all transgender. They would not necessarily describe themselves as such.

Yes they are. You're making up your own definition. Non binary gender identity is part of transgenderism.

In any case it's precisely the same issue even if what you are saying was true, Earrings. But it isn't true.

transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive

@EarringsandLipstick

You need to go read the Irish Gender Recognition Act. You can self ID, fill out the application form, apply for a new name and a new legal sex. Gender and they/thems have got nothing to do with having any type of distress over the physical body.
Are you aware of the male who had to go to court to prevent being sectioned had specialists from the Tavi issue an opinion he had no GD (was not trans) but was still given a GRC?

They/them has self IDed as trans.

Your daughter will get used to it. She should talk to the person privately and explain that she isn't used to it, but will do the best that she can. If she gets it wrong, she should correct herself and move on. I don't use my birth pronouns, and if anyone gets it wrong, I don't get mad, I correct them and we move on. If this is the first non-binary person that she has met, of course its going to take a while, but its a learning curve for us all. However, if this is going against her moral code or whatever, that is transphobia, and you might want to suggest either not being friends with the person, or seriously having a think about why it troubles her so much. This situation isn't about her, its about the person who has bravely come out, if it makes them comfortable, then we need to accommodate to them. This is not the last trans person that your daughter will meet, and she needs to understand how to make them feel comfortable and welcome. Her classmate will experience a lot of discrimination throughout their life, and you need to educate your daughter to make sure she is not contributing to that.