daughter struggling with friend's pronouns

[t1lly]

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter.
She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her.
My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her.
Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible.
Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

@mildtomoderate

Another thread inviting people to be openly transphobic, very loosely centred around an 'issue'. So sick of these threads.

Feel free to put forward the opposing viewpoint and address the issues raised.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

The concept that one child can force their ideological belief into another to compel another child to speak in a specific way is chilling. As adults we need to rise up and stop this before it is too late…..

This.

told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her
The arrogance of this is astounding.

It's not intolerant to object to being gaslit

@EarringsandLipstick

It is not transphobia to challenge gender identity on the basis of biological sex - which is a belief protected in law.

Agreed.

However, there's no question that this thread is about that. All OP asked about was use of 'they/them' pronouns. There's no indication that the student in question is transgender.

I know of teens in my DD's year group who use pronouns in a certain way & are not trans. Usually the school & everyone around them lets them get on with it. No need for over-stating a situation that most likely doesn't exist.

Agree, but this was in response to a PP who felt this was a transphobic thread.

@Clymene

It's not intolerant to object to being gaslit

Oh stop! Who is being 'gaslit'? 🙄

Honestly, I get so fed up of people using a term related to serious emotional abuse so casually to try and support a particular argument. Many of us have actually experienced gaslighting and know exactly what it means. 😡

@EarringsandLipstick

Personally, I'd just call her she and not be bothered about any backlash because it's all bloody stupid,

That's offensive, and so intolerant.

It's not offensive or intolerant. Do you believe this girl is non-binary? No, like 99.9% of the other kids who declare themselves non-binary, she won't be. She'll just be following the leader. We need to teach girls that it's fine not to be feminine. They need to stand up for themselves and be proud to be female. By affirming that they are non-binary, you're messing them up for life. People are so afraid of offending people nowadays that all sense of normality has jumped out of the window.

this was in response to a PP who felt this was a transphobic thread.

Oh I know,I agree.

I'm trying to make the point that some posters are leaping right into a 'trans' dialogue when there's no evidence that this is the issue here at all.

On MN such threads get completely divisive with no chance of middle ground, I observe.

Those PPs who think everyone should kowtow to gender ideology and “be kind” about using the wrong sex pronouns should google the excellent “pronouns are Rohypnol” essay, by our very own Barraker from MN.

Do you believe this girl is non-binary?

I believe this student has made a specific request about pronouns which I would have no problem accommodating.

This is regardless of my own views on the wider issue of biological sex.

Many people ask for & do things I don't personally endorse. There is a spectrum of how I feel personally I can accommodate these, and this is one I could.

@Holly60...but what if you had to say bottle feeding was best and praise it over breastfeeding every time you saw your friend just to make her feel validated in her choice instead of just keeping quiet or changing the subject? Being compelled to say you agree with or believe in something when you don't is not just 'being nice'.

@ColdShouldersWarmTummy

Tbh then I think it has to be a lesson in tolerance. She's vegan, but hopefully wouldn't refuse to collect a meat sandwich for a friend (or whatever). Similarly she needs to know that she can disagree with the pronouns thing but still be polite and refer to this person how they choose. Of course she should also be reassured that if she makes a mistake she won't be ostracised. I agree with pps suggesting to talk to the school on that point.

This is a good analogy, thanks. Where it falls down is that she would probably joke about the poor moo cow to a good friend when collecting their Big Mac there is no outlet like that for joking or even respectfully discussing on this issue which is why she's possibly over reacting etc etc. It's not a healthy way to deal with issues in my opinion, but that is just my opinion.

I'm going to thank everyone for their comments and advice and leave it there as it's morphing into a discussion on something else now.

Maybe say that at 13 the friend is just trying to find out where to fit in and it is polite to follow the lead when requested.

Maybe the teen in question is uncomfortable with the sexism and showy marketing angle for girls for example, there could be lots of reasons. There might be agreement from your daughter on this issue so she should not assume they have different opinions necessarily.

In the old days Rebecca would be Becci Becky Beki Bex and Reba before coming to decide later which one feels most right.
Purists would have been puzzled at the shortened spellings but go along with it out of manners and eventually Rebecca would settle on one.

It’s to be welcomed that people can be their own truth.

The XX XY thing is likely not what’s being tested at all here though so no need to get into any big arguments or set out any stalls.

I was having this discussion with a friend last night and the very fact they is plural absolutely causes a linguistic struggle. Kids are cruel and as a teacher pointed out it’s all the rage and can be policed quite viscously. But like in the 80s when vegetarians became more popular in school and a few went about it quietly but I do remember one friend screaming that meat is murder and we all had blood in our hands.

It’s a shame that no one can civilise that they don’t believe in gender constructs fir fear of being cancelled.

I did wonder why they didn’t make up some pronouns that weren’t plural and apparently that was tried but didn’t catch on.

Speaking to the head is a good idea I think

there is no outlet like that for joking or even respectfully discussing on this issue which is why she's possibly over reacting

That's a very good point OP, and I agree with you.

Not just on this issue but the wider dialogue; there's so little scope for expression of views, that can be heard with tolerance, even when they are strongly ideologically opposed.

She has a right to feel uncomfortable as the enforcement of third party pronouns is a form of abusive control. Note the drama / common curtesy / blame game pushes the obligation on to your daughter to comply with the demand particularly when she is not in the other girls company.
Now is a good time to explain how people use subtle control to achive an outcome they want. The impulse to #bekind is being used against your daughter. She will be told "what's the harm" when in fact the harm is the designed shifting of her personal boundary. She has to centralise this random child and expand mental energy on the random child's wants. She is entitled to say no and need your support on how to grey wall the other child.

This random child will be stuck in your child's live for another few years. I expect that more children will decide that "living the dream" in school will include becoming special/ nonbinary. How good is the random child at manipulating friends and class mates in social situations. Ask your daughter to figure out what the random child gains by controlling other people's speech. While it won't help with the pronouns it may help her to feel more confident when she understands and can spot the social dynamics being used.

She could have a read of the thread below too
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4434565-what-are-your-pronouns-best-response-for-a-14-yo

If she is being called transphobic for not using pronouns she is being bullied. A bully will always use any method possible to bully.
If your child feels anxious she should do her best to ignore conversations about this other child. The usual apologies will work but a nice smile and a small sigh with a variation of "I have my own problems to deal without trying to solve X's, so did you get all your homework done yet?".
Contact the school too and highlight the fact that your child is anxious and establish what the schools attitude to this is. Of course check how they deal with safeguarding and children/ parents who want access to the facilities for the other sex.

I think finding your name and finding your gender are two different things though, the big difference also is that if you called bekie Rebecca by mistake that’s fine, they correct you, but being corrected from her to them is done in a way you are branded transphobic straight away 🤨
If you can see she’s a she, it’s against language to call them they-as your using your eyes. Sex and gender are different things, people seem to be confusing the two and trying to intertwine them

DS said that this was a big thing when he was in year 7 and year 8 (so ages 11-13, for those not in the English school system), but had died off by the end of year 9 with only a small handful of teens with “genuine” - his words - dysphoria persisting.

He always said he was happy to use the preferred pronouns of those who were “really trans” but couldn’t be bothered with “the anime girls who change their pronouns every few days”. He was called truscum but is thick skinned and doesn’t mind ruffling a few feathers!

DD is currently in the thick of it and feels she has to go along with it for an easy life. She has a few stock phrases for when she gets it wrong.

@t1lly

Hi, I did consider posting this in the feminism section as i know it's controversial, but really looking for advice about how to support my daughter. She is 13. A girl in her class who she has known since primary announced a while back she is non-binary/genderfluid and told everyone to use they/them pronouns when speaking about her. My daughter has been/is struggling with this, both in terms of the mental gymnastics required to use the correct pronouns (she tied herself in knots trying to explain to me) and also because she feels it goes against her personal beliefs/moral code which is important to her. Yesterday it came up in conversation and she was very tearful about it, partly because she has a dread fear of getting in trouble (she's like that with anything) but also because she is not able to discuss the situation or say how she feels with anyone at school for fear of being called transphobic (that has already happened once). I don't know what else to say to her other than 1) no-one is going to be annoyed if she gets the pronoun wrong (i actually don't know that is true - it happened once and got back to the girl) 2) To try to use this person's name rather than they/them. 3)To avoid the situation as much as possible. Has anyone got any other advice? She is anxious at school anyway and this is another layer of stress she could really do without.

Tell your daughter not to bother trying to tie herself up in knots pandering to this other kid.

My niece is now non-binary and my sister in law will bark at you to use they/them if you say she/her. 🤨

Which I wilfully ignore. No one can tell you what you can and can't say. That's compelled speech and narcissistic in the extreme.

I just use her name all the time (referring to her in the 3rd person) and that's an end to it.

Just explain to her that she doesn’t need to worry when she’s talking to the actual friend as she doesn’t say he/she.

It’s only when she’s talking to other people about that friend.
So she can try and avoid talking about that friend too much and if she does then use her name instead.

Honestly her views are irrelevant in this situation.
Just like her being vegan, she needs to learn that other people have different views than her and she needs to respect that just like they should respect she’s vegan, which I’m sure plenty of people don’t agree with.

I know it’s very difficult when you have such a sensitive child as they worry and overthink things.

Unfortunately girls get to an age (usually year 9) and they seem to fall out over everything. If it’s not this issue it will be something else so the best thing you can do is just listen and be supportive as you already are.

I'm a vegetarian. I'd buy a friend a sandwich with meat in it. I wouldn't call it a 'vegetarian sandwich' because the friend insisted she was a vegetarian and vegetarians could eat sandwiches containing chicken. Even if it would hurt her feelings that I disagreed.

Trying to make someone say something that they don't believe to be true is not polite in any way. Why should OP's DD have to be so accommodating and hyper-respectful of her friend's beliefs about gender, while the friend isn't expected to respect or even tolerate the beliefs of those who disagree?

Call the kid by their name. She has chosen to go pronouny and in all odds will choose to return to ‘she’.

The whole ‘pussyfoot around to be branded a Transphobe’ is just plain old bullying. If there is a fear of repercussions of making a ‘mistake’ then it’s bullying.

Where it falls down is that she would probably joke about the poor moo cow to a good friend when collecting their Big Mac grin there is no outlet like that for joking or even respectfully discussing on this issue which is why she's possibly over reacting etc etc.

The friend eating the burger probably wouldn’t find it as funny though.

DD might not find it as funny if a meat eater was having banter with her about how she’s a sheep latching on to a new fad (or whatever the insults for vegans are now).

If her friend had recently come out as gay you wouldn’t start joking about it straight away. It takes time for the friend to be comfortable enough to do that and it would be the friend who initiated the banter, not your DD.

I think you need to be very careful when having a laugh, especially with someone who is obviously quite insecure with themselves.

Oh and the whole ‘when you refer to me’ - so if the kid isn’t there and someone says ‘she’ then they run off to snitch? All sounds ‘little red guard’ to me.

@EarringsandLipstick

Personally, I'd just call her she and not be bothered about any backlash because it's all bloody stupid,

That's offensive, and so intolerant.

What is offensive about using the correct sex pronouns for a girl when she is not present?

You live in a country which has legislated for a woman gender lifestyle and man gender lifestyles which can be affirmed to and is about to legislate for State funding for Bleeders, how far should the OP's daughter go to prove how tolerant and inoffensive she can be?