School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

The child can be excluded if his behaviour is dangerous twords other children / teachers. It's basically down to safety.

I don't actually think this is the school for your ds. They've already shown their true colours and the fact is they couldn't give two hoots. But. Before you move everywhere, you have to milk them for every bit, that they should've done, before you jump ship.

My DS struggles to change tasks as it takes him time to follow due to ADD, but once his mind is in something it can be hard to step away. While others may feel annoyed, he tends to feel anger. He's better with space to calm down and now (11yr) apologises quickly for outbursts and moves on.

Meant to add...so if the school can try to provide ways to provide him with a space to walk to he could be taught to control his own emotions to self manage as he gets older.

@Patapouf

You utterly missed my point. You (and in fairness, many other PP) don't seem to spare a scrap of empathy for other children in the class. So I pointed out that among those children are likely others with additional needs. Since these are clearly - in your view - the only children worth bothering about, do you start caring when the violent child attacks them? Is he (because it is, of course, most often a boy...) allowed to attack all children? Or just neurotypical ones?

[quote Innocenta]@Patapouf

You utterly missed my point. You (and in fairness, many other PP) don't seem to spare a scrap of empathy for other children in the class. So I pointed out that among those children are likely others with additional needs. Since these are clearly - in your view - the only children worth bothering about, do you start caring when the violent child attacks them? Is he (because it is, of course, most often a boy...) allowed to attack all children? Or just neurotypical ones? [/quote]
Lots of people have missed the point this child is year two why haven't they as a school done anything sooner

[quote Innocenta]@Patapouf

You utterly missed my point. You (and in fairness, many other PP) don't seem to spare a scrap of empathy for other children in the class. So I pointed out that among those children are likely others with additional needs. Since these are clearly - in your view - the only children worth bothering about, do you start caring when the violent child attacks them? Is he (because it is, of course, most often a boy...) allowed to attack all children? Or just neurotypical ones? [/quote]
It is you who has missed the point. This thread is about a little boy, not the other children in the class for who you have no evidence are at risk of any violence. I'm not sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet? Why do you dislike children with additional needs so much?

Please highlight where I've said children without SEN don't matter because my whole point is that EVERY CHILD matters and this little boy is being very badly let down by his school. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of inclusion in education, it is for everybody's benefit to make sure children are well supported no matter their learning style or any barriers to learning they face. Supporting the boy adequately helps his whole class and the wider school

I hope you aren't an education professional. I hope you aren't a parent frankly because your attitude is not one that should risk impacting others or being passed on.

Lots of people have missed the point this child is year two why haven't they as a school done anything sooner

I find it unbelievable that people seriously think that the school hasn’t tried the obvious things that could help like visual timetables, now and next boards etc. Presumably they’ve had this child since reception, so two years, and it seems highly unlikely that they have done literally nothing for him in that time.

An EHCP is already being applied for, so until extra funding and support from the LA comes forward, there is only so much they are capable of doing with such extreme behaviour issues.

@Patapouf I literally was a child with additional needs and am a severely disabled adult. I do not dislike children with additional needs at all; quite the contrary, I respect them enough to think it's dehumanising that you and others feel they should be allowed to engage in violence.

Seeing someone with additional needs as a real person, an equal person, includes valuing their personhood and their existence enough not to write them off morally. In this situation it's utterly nonsensical to claim the other children in the class - remember, too, they're only six - aren't at risk of violence. The child in question had hurt multiple children. That's why the issue exists in the first place.

The lashing out is going to be the response to some sort of trigger. School (along with the parents) need to be working to find those triggers so steps can be made to reduce the chances of him lashing out.

Ds was the violent one in year 3. It was due to unmet needs, we all worked hard together to understand those needs. We fought together to get him an ehcp with full 1-1 but that only happened in year 5. Before that school did what they could with what they had while still ensuring trigger points/ times where avoided. He is now in year 7 and a mainstream secondary (full 1-1) and hasn’t had any violent outbursts at school since early in year 4.

It’s not easy but it’s worthwhile. But it takes a lot of teamwork to get to the bottom on the issues and then make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs.

(Obviously not every child will respond in the same way, some will still be better in a different setting because of their needs but with a bit of team work things can change.)

@Patapouf Obviously I'm summarising the stance of you and many PP rather than quoting, hence the absence of quotation marks. But there are myriad comments expressing this basic view - re-read your own, for a start. Those by @MollysDolly are also a good example of this attitude.

I am in no way against children having the support they need, and if you look at my comments, you'll see that. What I am against is the use of ANs to excuse and justify violence. This is incredibly insulting to children and adults within this demographic, because violence is inexcusable from everyone, and having ANs doesn't make someone less of a person. It also 100% erases the genuine negative impact on other children and on staff, and narrow-mindedly presupposes the other children can/should be able to cope because they're 'normal', when some/many of them may also have ANs.

The sad thing is, you think your opinion is informed and compassionate, when it's quite the opposite.

(Just because you don't like an opinion doesn't mean it's derailing! Bear that in mind.)

@Foxyloxy1plus1

This boy is getting the attention he wants by behaving in a way that is pretty unacceptable. He needs teaching, by everyone, that you can get attention by behaving in ways that aren’t harming or bullying others.

perfectstorm your post is heartbreaking. Those of us who work, or worked in SEND, battled over almost every child with additional needs to try to get the right support. It was bad enough when I was teaching, infinitely worse now.

Yes, I’ve been hit, kicked, sworn at, wrestled to the ground. I’ve also had wonderful moments and I’m glad I spent all those years in SEND.

Op, I hope your relative can find some support for the little boy and that he can be supported to stay in school.

I find it very difficult to reconcile the first paragraph of this post with the rest of it. Anyone who knows anything about SEND knows that a child with ASD/PDA/ADHD type difficulties is not behaving as he does in order to get attention, but as an indicator of distress.

[quote Innocenta]**@Patapouf* Obviously I'm summarising the stance of you and many PP rather than quoting, hence the absence of quotation marks. But there are myriad comments expressing this basic view - re-read your own, for a start. Those by @MollysDolly* are also a good example of this attitude.

I am in no way against children having the support they need, and if you look at my comments, you'll see that. What I am against is the use of ANs to excuse and justify violence. This is incredibly insulting to children and adults within this demographic, because violence is inexcusable from everyone, and having ANs doesn't make someone less of a person. It also 100% erases the genuine negative impact on other children and on staff, and narrow-mindedly presupposes the other children can/should be able to cope because they're 'normal', when some/many of them may also have ANs.

The sad thing is, you think your opinion is informed and compassionate, when it's quite the opposite.

(Just because you don't like an opinion doesn't mean it's derailing! Bear that in mind.) [/quote]
It is derailing because the OP didn't ask for your opinion, they have asked for help/support. You have given no constructive advice. Saying that children with additional needs should have those needs met should not be controversial and I think you have very bizarre views and are very focussed on the 'value' of a child.

This isn't about excusing violence this is about making sure a child has adequate support so that they can access education, an education they are entitled to just the same as their peers are. Ultimately the root cause of the behaviour doesn't matter (especially not to us), what matters is that the school are fulfilling their legal obligations because they are not doing so in this case. Saying that the needs of this particular child matter does not mean that the other children in the class do not matter, every child deserves to feel safe and supported in their learning environment but for some children that means extra help.

He is a very fussy eater and being plain Hangry has been a contributing factor to previous blow ups. School are now letting him take a snack from home, which has been banned under covid rules.

FFS how is a snack from home a covid risk any more than the child’s uniform or shoes or the child themselves. Certainly any miniscule covid risk is outweighed by the risk of this boy getting hangry and lashing out. This school sounds more and more useless in terms of trying to support him to change his behaviour.

LethargicActress as regards how common it is for children to hit and kick each other - ok, I think it depends on what we mean by “common”. I don’t mean it’s constant, I mean maybe 5 incidents per week in a year group of 50-60. Which is not that often, but also not vanishingly rate. It’s probably more when you include the ones that no adult saw.

It’s not clear how often this little boy is hurting others. How often does make a big difference in terms of balancing his needs vs other children’s, of course. Even if it’s often though, it’s still awful that the school doesn’t appear to be doing any of the (fairly obvious) things like a quiet place for him to go at playtimes, or letting him have his snack from home.

Plataf the first paragraph is by a different poster from the rest

Sorry Platax

He is a very fussy eater and being plain Hangry has been a contributing factor to previous blow ups. School are now letting him take a snack from home, which has been banned under covid rules.

In fact what am I say

The school sounds utterly shit

I wouldn’t want my child in this school, let alone this class

I think you have very bizarre views

...you think it's bizarre to regard children and adults with additional needs as fully human and equal? Um, wtf. @Patapouf

@Innocenta

I think you have very bizarre views

...you think it's bizarre to regard children and adults with additional needs as fully human and equal? Um, wtf. @Patapouf

Hahahahhaha very funny. Where have I said that? Please quote word for word where I have said that because I'm pretty sure those are your words that you've plucked out of thin air.

Why is it you think that ensuring children have proper support is dehumanising? I see that it is a concept you are unable to grasp but equality doesn't mean treating everyone the same way, some children need more support to put them on a level playing field.

You seem very intent on arguing with a construct of your own imagination that you have attributed to me, but what do you actually suggest to the OP? Anything helpful to add? Any useful suggestions? Or do you just want to stand on a soapbox because you have a chip on your shoulder?

Do you not think that poor little 6 year old deserves the support that he is legally entitled to? Or do you think the only thing that matters is separating him from other children to keep the others safe? Should schools not be expected to carry out thorough assessment and then implement some strategies that might help him? What do you propose?

Thank you @Sirzy. We think at this point he's very anxious about school and on edge, which doesn't help.

It becomes a vicious circle then which is always going to be tough.

Can be verbalise what it is that makes him worried at school? Or if he won’t say you could ask him to draw a picture that may give more ideas?

@Sirzy he says they are picking on him. I think he feels watched and jumped on, and that is now making him anxious, so it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

In a couple of previous instances he's said he did something by accident, or something wasn't his fault, or someone else did something first, but he's got the blame. Obviously that's probably because of how he has reacted.

For example someone else started a playground scuffle, but he finished it by headbutting the other child. Clearly he's done the wrong thing. But I can understand that a 6yo would feel hard done by if they were the only one copping it. Trouble is the teachers intervene (rightly), he says it wasn't me, they say something to him about how he shouldn't do xyz, he fires back, they tell him to calm down, he blows his top, something physical happens like he hits or kicks the teacher, mum gets called...

So now I get the impression they're watching him like a hawk and he's pushing against that. He probably feels he is 'bad'.

He's not stupid. He hears what's said. He's been for assessments. He asks his mum if he'll be at school all day or if they'll send him home.

Sorry so yes, he can verbalise all of this well. He's a pretty eloquent and entertaining child, bright, funny, enthusiastic. I've always described him to my dh as a bit of a delinquent, but there's no malice in him. He's just full of energy and sometimes silly / stupid. Needs direction. I really feel for him as it's all just going so wrong for him. My relative is now talking about having to give up work...