School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

Are the things that help at home replicatable at school?
Or, Perhaps at home they can try out things the school would do so it's the same (e.g. reading corner if he starts to get angry so he has somewhere to go?)

My DS has ADD and had related issues in primary and went through periods where he was better encouraged to be left alone to calm down and lunch periods to stay in and read. He became frustrated by not being able to focus on learning/games.

He didn't physically hurt anyone though he would have shouting outbursts and roll around on the floor. He hasn't had major issues for years now, but will probably always struggle with multiple instructions (struggles to keep up).

Why should other children be at risk?

Exclusion for a violent child that is attack others is completely correct action.

Sounds like he need specialist treatment and isn't getting it, you can't put that on the school which arent specialist though and the other innocent children certainly don't have to bare the brunt of it.

They (school) should have had him assessed awhile ago not the parents 🙄

Are the Exclusions legal? In writing etc? Have they (school) applied for assessment?

Have the parents taken him to the Dr's? You can sometimes get diagnosis via the Dr's but it will need the schools cooperation

@mam0918

Why should other children be at risk?

Exclusion for a violent child that is attack others is completely correct action.

Sounds like he need specialist treatment and isn't getting it, you can't put that on the school which arent specialist though and the other innocent children certainly don't have to bare the brunt of it.

No, it isn't completely correct unless the school has followed the statutory exclusions guidance, which in particular emphasises that for children with SEN they should first take every step to ensure that he has proper support. It sounds like they should have applied for an EHCP at least a year ago - that in turn is likely to have resulted in support which would mean he is less frustrated and overwhelmed and therefore less likely to hit out; also he would probably have had 1:1 specialist support which again would have headed off a lot of trouble.

So if he needs specialist support and isn't getting it, you certainly can put it on the school if they did not apply for it at the appropriate time before the problems escalated.

If the school has applied for the EHCP, I am certain they have actually done something.

To apply for an ECHP requires evidence of behaviour plans, support plans, classroom interactions, what has worked, what hasn’t, meeting minutes…

If the school is cash strapped- they will have no funding for an additional behaviour support adult.

The only practical thing that the school could do is train staff with positive handling (restraint training) so he can be calmed and held when being aggressive, and then perhaps completing some work away from the other children incase he bubbles again. But if they don’t have money for a member of staff to facilitate this, then that can’t be done. For the safety of the other children, they can’t introduce a live wire back into the class if they don’t have the adults needed to manage his behaviour. They could ask for him to be referred to play therapy by the SENCO, but parents will need to take him to this in their own time.

What do your relatives actually want the school to do?

They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything how do you know until he has tried it?

It is usual in the school I volunteer in, it reduces the amount of time a child needs to deal with being told what to do, where to sit, what work they should be doing. They usually go home at lunch. If the behaviour improves then they start to stay for lunch too. Schools usually work really hard to try to correct this sort of behaviour, removing them from core lessons to work on their social skills and managing their feelings.

I don't think you can full comprehend how distressing it is for other children who have never had to deal with a physically violent child to have one in their classroom, possibly sat with them. We have had staff have broken fingers, punched in the face, scratched. There is also a duty to safeguard staff. The school recruited specifically for 121, they have reduced lunch of 30 minutes as the other 30 minutes is staying with the child, another LSA does the other 30 minutes.

The school has several dedicated calm down rooms. I was outside a classroom in the library area where children choose books and all you could hear was "let me out you fucking bastards" ringing out whilst a child is also kicking the hell out of the door. As a parent, would you want that child in the school?

If he has hurt a teacher and, more importantly, hurt other children then I don't think his needs can be put above the needs of the majority and their right to go to school unmolested.

As others have said OP please make sure these exclusions are being formally documented every time otherwise they are illegal. The school should not be suggesting the parents take him out - what is that going to do for his education? That is extremely unprofessional - slightly different but it is against the law to use the threat of exclusion to influence a parent into removing their child. The school are just trying to get rid of him which is frankly terrible. Taking him out is the last thing the parents should do, they are then in limbo with no leverage to get him the help he needs.

The school need to get support for him as he is entitled to an education and it definitely doesn't sound like they've tried 'everything'. They know they could never permanently exclude him as they haven't done all the things possible to help him - but they probably don't want to spend the money - and getting his parents to remove him is easier and cheaper.

If he is having numerous exclusions they are obviously not working to fix the problem and it really needs to be properly addressed.
Loads of good relevant info here:
childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/school-exclusion/

Have you asked for a copy of the school’s behaviour policy, (they should have one). Check to see whether they’re following it.

Your friends/family need to keep him on the pathway for NHS assessment, if the GP is refusing then they need to go back and kick up a stink. A private assessment ruling out an ASC out is pretty meaningless, if he doesn't have an ASC then what do they think he has? There was a very long wait for the NHS but once they got going my DC had preliminary assessments for a load of things, not just ASC (though ASC was the one they homed in on pretty fast).

Your family shouodn't agree to take him our of school without a formal exclusion, every time. Schools don't like to exclude formally beacuse it shows up in their statistics, but informal exclusions are illegal and formally documented exclusions are evidence that a child needs more help and unrecorded ones aren't. I agree about contacting IPSEA for advice, they have a helpline. www.ipsea.org.uk/

OP, you might want to ask for this thread to be moved to the SN boards.

how do you know until he has tried it?

Because unless short term aimed at reintegration a part time timetable is unlawful whether or not parents agree. If it is usual in the school you volunteer it that is very poor practice and the parents should be encouraged to challenge such unlawful practices.

If the school is cash strapped- they will have no funding for an additional behaviour support adult.

The school can apply for high needs top up funding if they need more funding to provide support whilst awaiting the EHCP to be finalised. The school can offer much more than positive handling. Whilst the evidence you mention may be helpful it is not essential when applying for an EHCP. The only legal test is a) has or may have SEN, and b) may require SEN provision to be made via an EHCP. Any other test such as 2 cycles of assess/plan/do/review is unlawful.

btw I got sent to a parenting group by the GP while I was waiting for the NHS Children's Mental Health Service (CAMHS) referral. Your relatives should go along if they're advised to attend one, at worst it's a box ticked and in fact I got some good support.

Bear in mind the school is also responsible for children he has injured/frightened ; and no doubt dealing with complaints from their parents.

The school staff have to safeguard his class, and that;s why when he is violent, they call his parent to take him home and give it a day for him, and the kids he hurt, to settle down.

Whether or not his parents realise it, that IS the school working with them and their child to minimise physical, social and educational harm. to him and other kids. While waiting for the ECHP.

The school suggested to try part time hours; parents refused . IOW they refused to even try an offered solution/intervention.

What are THE PARENTS doing at home, to stop him hitting his mother?

@mam0918 and @SpoonWhereArtThou and @WomanWithDiamondEarring I just want to explain that it's not that he's sat in the class room and just goes nuts, interrupting others learning and attacking students. The majority of the things I have heard about have started at play time and escalated. The problem seems almost always to be when he's told that he's starting to go too far and told to calm down or think of his behaviour. It almost always has the opposite effect. Then the responsible adult might use their hands, which he kicks off against, and it all just snowballs. A calm down room sounds like a useful idea!

I also just want to mention the effect of lockdown, he's obviously missed a lot of year 1, he's also one of the younger children in the school year, he's not very mature. I just feel he needs to be taught / guided in how to regulate his emotions, instead of being sent home. Sending him home is to my mind a missed opportunity. That's what I think about reduced hours too, unless it's part of a strategy for how to sort things out.

Thanks for advice on formal /informal exclusions @AmaryllisNightAndDay and others.

OP can you find out where they are with the EHCP, whether the statutory timescales are being stuck to and whether all the correct advice has been requested? As part of an EHCNA your relative can ask for advice form a psychiatrist to be sought.

The school staff have to safeguard his class, and that;s why when he is violent, they call his parent to take him home and give it a day for him, and the kids he hurt, to settle down.

Whether or not his parents realise it, that IS the school working with them and their child to minimise physical, social and educational harm. to him and other kids. While waiting for the ECHP.

The school suggested to try part time hours; parents refused .

Whether or not you believe it is the school working with the parents or not unless the school followed the statutory exclusion guidance it is unlawful. Sending a child home “to settle down” without following the formal exclusion policy is an illegal exclusion, something too many schools.

Unless short term aimed at reintegration part time timetables are unlawful, whether or not parents agree.

If the school has applied for the EHCP, I am certain they have actually done something.

To apply for an ECHP requires evidence of behaviour plans, support plans, classroom interactions, what has worked, what hasn’t, meeting minutes

But this child is in Year 2, and I'm willing to bet that he came into school with at least some of the information they needed from nursery. All this could have been started off a year ago and he could have had an EHCP by the end of the Reception year.

Plus, if the school is resorting to illegal exclusions several times a week as appears to be the case, I really wouldn't like to be too optimistic that they have been doing what they should in terms of support and interventions. Apart from anything else, if he is only in school part time that limits the time available for support and means that problems escalate because he's missed so many lessons that he doesn't know what's going on.

@2bazookas they haven't refused part time hours. They are not sure what to do for the best for their child. No parent is magically equipped to deal with these sorts of issues. They want to know that they're asking the right questions from school. And that school are doing the right things. Which is understandable.

Rights and wrongs aside the school doesn’t sound like it’s run well for SEN. Are there other schools in the area they could look at? Some schools do it brilliantly and some are just woeful. Rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole they may be better looking elsewhere.

They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything how do you know until he has tried it?

It is usual in the school I volunteer in, it reduces the amount of time a child needs to deal with being told what to do, where to sit, what work they should be doing.

Your school is acting unlawfully, @SpoonWhereArtThou. Children need the right support to learn those things - they won't learn by being sent home, and if they keep missing lessons they will get further and further behind and will become ever more confused and frustrated.

@WomanWithDiamondEarring

If he has hurt a teacher and, more importantly, hurt other children then I don't think his needs can be put above the needs of the majority and their right to go to school unmolested.

But that doesn't automatically mean he should be chucked out. The school should be putting in place support so that the problem doesn't arise. It's evident that the issue arises around playtimes, so it may well be that support at that time would make a major difference.

What the school are doing is illegal and if I were the child's mother I would be reminding them of that in writing.

www.ipsea.org.uk/Pages/Category/exclusion-from-school

Apparently the early pick ups have been an agreed arrangement not a documented exclusion.

He deserves an education but so do his classmates. They will have put in interventions and spoken to the parents multiple times before reaching this point. What setting are they suggesting - have they offered a place at a more suitable school? It's a difficult situation all around but my advice is to sit down with the senco and ask what they are suggesting, bringing in Ed psych if needed.

[quote Indecisivelurcher]@2bazookas they haven't refused part time hours. They are not sure what to do for the best for their child. No parent is magically equipped to deal with these sorts of issues. They want to know that they're asking the right questions from school. And that school are doing the right things. Which is understandable.[/quote]
My feeling in these cases is that it always seems to be down to the parents to sort out. Who probably have little specialist knowledge (although no doubt they learn fast).

And yet it's the schools that are full of professionals and links to other specialists who can help. As are GP surgeries. It sounds to me like the school and the GP are failing the OP's friend/relative here.

If this boy behaves well in class but not at playtime that is easy to sort out, surely?

Would this be better posted in the Special Needs section? There are a lot of very knowledgeable people over there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs_chat

Although there is good advice on this thread, it's possible it will get derailed by the "children should just behave and their parents should make them" posters at some point