School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

[quote Happy1982ish]@HelplessProcrastinator

I wonder how the children head butted by him felt?

I wonder how the children enjoying a lesson and then repeatedly abruptly ending because of yet another outburst
I wonder how many children are scared of him[/quote]
But that’s why school should do all possible to find triggers and support this child bexayse it will be beneficial for everyone!

@Sirzy

Yes but this is clearly not a strong school in this regard
So even with the best will in the world - there’s no quick fix

Meanwhile…. 32 endure the impact

So then the school are failing all pupils. Still not the fault of this one student in any way!

@Awesomeo90

I work with violent autistic children in mainstream school. Your relative needs to speak to the SENCO to make a plan but they won't get an EHCP without a SEN diagnosis. It's difficult because a lot of the behaviour you've described would likely be reduced or eliminated with 1-1 support, but again without a diagnosis, the school won't have funding for this. I'd start with asking for him to have a visual timetable and a safe space made available to him, where he can go to calm down when needed.

There is no need for a diagnosis for EHCP purposes. To start the assessment process, all that the LA needs to be satisfied of is that the child may have SEN, and may need support through an EHCP.

@Sirzy

So then the school are failing all pupils. Still not the fault of this one student in any way!

Indeed. But the school could be poor at dealing with serious and violent behaviour issues But be superb at educating others

Ideally both
But not going to happen anytime soon.

@Floundery

Meaning 32 other children suffer from broken lessons, high drama and some actually physical harm and no doubt fear

So what do you suggest? The LA can’t magically pull a special school place (rare as rocking horse shit faod) out of their arse. It takes years. YEARS.

Should we just stick the “naughty” kid in the stocks until then?

The school needs to raise its game here.

No denying that

No silver bullet though

Ans every day that passes, is a day that children are physically assaulted, scared, and frustrated by lessons being abruptly disrupted

You can hardly blame them. It's not fair on the teachers or the other 29 pupils in the class. I don't know what you expect them to do?

@flippertyop

You can hardly blame them. It's not fair on the teachers or the other 29 pupils in the class. I don't know what you expect them to do?

I would expect them to comply with the law and take reasonable steps to identify and meet the child's needs before excluding him.

Does that law apply when peers are being severely physically assaulted?

[quote flippertyop]@Happy1982ish obviously not. The violent uncontrollable child seems to be far more important than the other 30 victims of his behaviour. Their needs don't seem to factor for some posters [/quote]
Oh and were “judgemental idiots” for thinking otherwise

Sorry, just to clarify, I wasn't saying he can't get a EHCP, more that he likely won't.
I would be looking for another school to be honest. Sending children with suspected SEN home is terrible practice. Sending children of 6 home is terrible practice. I have scars from the children I've worked with and I've never sent them home. I've also never allowed them to hurt other children. Violent children have the same right to attend school as any other child, and it is possible to do this without risk of harm to other pupils. The school are failing this child but in fairness, sometimes they just don't have the resources or staff to deal with this sort of behaviour.

@flippertyop I don't disagree but I do think the flip side to that exclusion needs to be a plan. Otherwise they'll end up with a 6yo or of school, whose whole life is on the wrong path. Because they didn't put anything in place to actually help him learn any emotional regulation. Where does that leave him at 10? At 15? When he's a lot bigger and could do more harm?

Autism doesn't mean violent and disruption my son is most likely autistic he is quiet and compliant at school

I have scars from the children I've worked with

Then I don't agree that either you or the children are being managed properly. You are not a punchbag to protect the other children.

Violent children have the same right to attend school as any other child, and it is possible to do this without risk of harm to other pupils.

Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. You do know that staff have the right to be safe at work too? A child's right to education does not override the rights of everyone else to be safe.

It sounds as if some of the children you teach cannot be taught safely in mainstream and need some other provision.

The OP's relative is a different case because he does not have support yet, certainly not specialist support, and appropriate strategies have not been tried. He hasn't even been fully assessed for his needs and abilities. Very different from the children you teach.

@Floundery then he needs to be excluded until he has an assessment and his behaviour is controlled

I'm not convinced he's going to get that plan at this school OP. They are not even attempting to manage this appropriately, so unless you're anticipating a change in school leadership imminently, it's quite like that things won't change very quickly, if at all. Unfortunately my own children's school were very very poor at dealing with SEN issues under a previous Head and Deputy, and despite lots and lots of fighting by some parents who knew the system well and knew just how to fight it, ultimately the only thing that solved it was a new head (the previous head was basically sacked, for this failure and others, but it took a long time to get him removed). The new head can too late for many children, who's best option was to move school, some families even moved house to facilitate that. Honestly, trying to get this school to do what they should be doing could be a very painful, very long process, and it maybe best to move him sooner rather than later.

Violent children have the same right to attend school as any other child, and it is possible to do this without risk of harm to other pupils.

Well then I’d argue the “violent” child really is not particularly “violent”

“Violent” children do not have the same “right” to attend any school. They should have a right to receive support to help them but they should not have the same right to attend any school.
Children have a right to attend school without fear of violence. And if there is a violent child in their class, they are being failed

[quote flippertyop]@Platax what needs? He has been assessed and doesn't have autism. If he is that disruptive and violent he should be excluded [/quote]
You do know that there are other learning difficulties besides autism, right?

If he is that disruptive and violent he should be excluded

Yes, that is what everyone else said. If the school can't manage him safely then they need to exclude him formally with either temporary exclusions or after they've gone through all the necessary steps to try to manage him properly permanent exclusion. Not messing about sending him home off the record.

@Happy1982ish

*Violent children have the same right to attend school as any other child, and it is possible to do this without risk of harm to other pupils.*

Well then I’d argue the “violent” child really is not particularly “violent”

“Violent” children do not have the same “right” to attend any school. They should have a right to receive support to help them but they should not have the same right to attend any school.
Children have a right to attend school without fear of violence. And if there is a violent child in their class, they are being failed

To an extent I agree. But the appropriate thing fir a school to do is to try a range of strategies, investigate SEN, apply for an ECHP assessment and if appropriate support the child to move to a setting that can meet their needs. Exclusions are lazy, totally inappropriate for a 6yr old and do nothing to either help the child to be able to be in class safely or to be placed in an appropriate school.

As a parent of other children in the class I would be really unimpressed if the school were routinely excluding children aged 6. It’s just a sign they have no idea what they are doing. I say this as a SLT teacher who has had to work out plans for several very violent children with their families. You don’t make the child or parents the enemy. You have to play detective and work out what is the root cause. Some children needed specialist environments. Some children we managed to work through it and were genuinely model pupils with the right support. Exclusions only keep the other children in the class safe for a day. They keep them safe for their whole school career or frankly walking down the street as an adult. We help hurting 6 yr olds because it’s the right thing to do, but it’s also the most logical thing as a society. Investment at age 6, means age 26 they are healthy, happy people contributing (however is appropriate) in life.