School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

mam0981 Well you are “doing it wrong” when you are advocating illegal exclusions, which is what you are doing when you post “Exclusion for a violent child that is attack others is completely correct action.” Because exclusion is only the correct thing when the school is following the statutory exclusion guidance, which this school isn’t doing. And by saying the school can not do any more than they are, when they can.

‘The system’ as in the EHCP process and assessments is operational and is governed by laws where the covid relaxations of those laws ended more than a year ago. There is no excuse for EHCNAs not to be undertaken as they should be now, nor for provision in EHCPs not to be given. If your LA aren’t adhering to the law you can enforce your DC’s rights.

@Orchid876

Having read some more posts I can't believe that some posters think that what this school is doing is OK. The school cannot just decide that they can't deal with him, so pressurise the parents to remove him. I'm fully aware of the pressures on state schools, I work as a teacher in one myself, but there are procedures in place which the school must follow if they want to exclude a student, and even if they're not getting the support from the LA that they need, they are legally and morally obliged to follow those procedures. Any school wilfully bypassing those procedures is not a good school. Yes it's very very difficult, but it is these sorts of issues that school leadership are responsible for. It's not all about getting good SATS results and nativity plays, the headteacher is paid to deal with this sort of stuff too. I can well imagine that they can't get the correct support and funding to deal with it, but it's simply not OK to try and subvert the correct legal process because of that, and a school leader worth their position would not do that. Of course some schools do this, but it is wrong.

So how do the school deal with the behaviour and physical abuse of peers and staff ?

To clarify I DO think that the child should be excluded if they are violent, and support has been offered but it is not working. But to permanently exclude a violent child isn't actually that difficult, so either they're not as violent as some posters seem to be suggesting, or the school hasn't provided the appropriate support and they know it so would struggle to exclude, or these exclusions are actually formally documented and they're a route to permanent exclusion.

So many typos. sorry x

@FinallyHere

He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates

It appears that a schools is the only setting left in which people, both teachers and students, are expected to accept that being hurt is something they just have to accept.

Can anyone suggest any other setting in which it is considered acceptable?

I haven't said school should accept this 🙄 I've said imo they should be trying to work with the parents to come up with a plan to support a very young child to learn important life skills.

@FinallyHere

He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates

It appears that a schools is the only setting left in which people, both teachers and students, are expected to accept that being hurt is something they just have to accept.

Can anyone suggest any other setting in which it is considered acceptable?

You're absolutely right to point this out. Where is the empathy from the aggrieved parents on this thread, for small children who are hurt and frightened at school? It should be a safe place for them! And teachers are just trying to do their jobs...

I don't think it helps anyone, ever, to portray people with additional needs as being somehow justified in enacting violence. No one is allowed to behave like that. It isn't okay ever.

If the SENCo is having trouble with the LA or NHS services (I say if, really it should ‘find out what’ trouble!), then the parents can make formal complaints to these services directly which are often much more effective than from the school. If these are ignored escalate as their complaints policies allow. Be persistent. The SENco and parents can make a effective team if parents are willing to fight and SENCo can piecemeal together temporarily just about acceptable solutions in school in the meantime.

The thing that’s not acceptable about this isn’t that the SENCO is struggling to get the right support or funding but that they don’t appear to be trying to.

@glitterelf if the child poses a danger to staff and other students they can be permanently excluded. But the correct procedures need to be followed, and if there is a paper trail of evidence of incidents and support, legal permanent exclusion is very likely with a violent child.

It’s not okay that children or staff are getting hurt but that will be as a direct result of unmet needs. When children with special needs and disabilities get their basic needs met, it’s good for everyone in society.

It’s really an entirely false battle to imagine that it’s parents of good children and parents of naughty children.

It’s not.

It’s all children and staff and the current woeful funding and provision. It’s impacting your child too, in all kinds of ways. Indirect issues with children in their class is but one, staff absence due to stress is another, lack of qualified teachers covering PPA is another.

They are all symptoms of the same root cause.

[quote Orchid876]@glitterelf if the child poses a danger to staff and other students they can be permanently excluded. But the correct procedures need to be followed, and if there is a paper trail of evidence of incidents and support, legal permanent exclusion is very likely with a violent child.[/quote]
A child in DD's has recently been excluded on multiple occasions all of them as a result of attacking either peers or staff. Like the child the Op is referring to the child has no formal diagnosis and assessments needed are not being done right now. It's distressing for all concerned. Unfortunately though we only have a part time Senco too which doesn't help matters either.

It may be that the parents of the other children in the class are dealing with distressed children at home at a time when they are very impressionable. Time taken dealing with one child on a continued basis will have a detrimental impact on them.

This boy is getting the attention he wants by behaving in a way that is pretty unacceptable. He needs teaching, by everyone, that you can get attention by behaving in ways that aren’t harming or bullying others.

perfectstorm your post is heartbreaking. Those of us who work, or worked in SEND, battled over almost every child with additional needs to try to get the right support. It was bad enough when I was teaching, infinitely worse now.

Yes, I’ve been hit, kicked, sworn at, wrestled to the ground. I’ve also had wonderful moments and I’m glad I spent all those years in SEND.

Op, I hope your relative can find some support for the little boy and that he can be supported to stay in school.

@Missmissmiiiiiiiiisss

It’s not okay that children or staff are getting hurt but that will be as a direct result of unmet needs. When children with special needs and disabilities get their basic needs met, it’s good for everyone in society.

It’s really an entirely false battle to imagine that it’s parents of good children and parents of naughty children.

It’s not.

It’s all children and staff and the current woeful funding and provision. It’s impacting your child too, in all kinds of ways. Indirect issues with children in their class is but one, staff absence due to stress is another, lack of qualified teachers covering PPA is another.

They are all symptoms of the same root cause.

Most people with disabilities and/or additional needs are not violent.

@glitterelf if the correct procedures are being followed, it will only be a matter of time before a permanent exclusion is enacted IF the school are doing everything that they can to help the situation. Sometimes it's a case of just building enough of a paper trail, but if the incidents are severe enough exclusion can be pretty immediate. But, I only have experience of working in schools that do follow correct procedures, where fixed term exclusions are properly documented and where support is sought, so permanent exclusions really are a final straw. That doesn't seem to be happening in the OPs case though, and to fail to properly document the fixed term exclusions, the school will actually find it more difficult to legally permanently exclude. Noone wins in this situation,. it's bad for the child involved, it's bad for the teachers, and the other students. But the school seem to be trying their luck in "off-rolling" before they're forced to actually follow the correct procedures, which is wrong.

Not read the full thread

My DD now age 9 has similar issues though not as much. Here is what school are doing:

• She sees the Senco once a week who works on behaviour regulation with her (zones of regulation ie recognising when she is getting wound up, strategies for walking away etc)

• She doesn’t get sat next to or put in the lunch queue next to specific kids who like to wind her up and watch her lash out

• She is allowed to go to the senco room or library at break if she needs quiet time

• In a particularly bad patch she spent two or three playtimes a week having quiet time

(Playtimes and unstructured lessons like Drama have always, always been the problem times).

• I get an email any time there is an incident so I can see if there is a pattern and if she maybe needs time off school (she gets tired very easily and in R and Y1 had regular half days off - but this was my choice)

• They also use the standard consequences ie she misses playtime, has to write an apology, has to go see the Head etc.

Overall there is a lot of understanding and willingness to work with her, which makes a huge difference and I am so grateful.

It is a private school (so much smaller classes) and is non selective. She has diagnosed SN which again helps as the teachers understand that she is not naughty or horrible but less able to control her reactions. Or at least some of them do.

Thanks for your post @minipie! Really useful to hear what your school are doing.

I would also point out my DD is very far from the only kid who has ever hit or kicked another child. She’s been on the receiving end more than a few times.

Some posters here seem to be suggesting that children never hit or kick and this boy is some kind of devil for doing it. IME it is actually pretty common among small children who are still learning to control themselves. Demonising it doesn’t help.

illegal illegal illegal

Your friend INSISTS that they record it as a fixed term each and every time and REFUSES to pick up otherwise. Does NOT agree to part-time as a strategy informally.
Any school cannot claim they are managing his needs if part-time is needed or informal pick-ups.

Your friend needs to write to the SENDCO copying in head, class teacher and head of governors and ask for confirmation IN WRITING of the following (you need a paper trail):

Is this child currently under Quality Teaching First* remit or have they been placed on the Special Needs Register?
If they are continuing to be supported by their teacher(s) only*, what strategies have been used so far to meet their emotional and mental health needs? What interventions (e.g. wobble cushions, legotherapy, behaviour mentoring) have been used and how effective have they been?
Is the child CURRENTLY under a Behaviour Plan? Can you have a copy of any Plan-Do-Reviews that have been tried?
Who is/are are the current Learning Support Assistant for year 2 (if they have one) and how much support is the child currently receiving?
What communications has the SENDCO had with outside agencies regarding observing the child? e.g. Behaviour for Learning and Inclusion service (you will have to google what it is for your area)

You will need all the above information if you yourself have applied or are applying for an EHCP.
If they are, then all this information should be to hand and along with it, I would be requesting any incident log they have for misbehaviour and all dates of their formal exclusions. If they deny he has been excluded, ask them to provide his attendance statistics. If you know he is still being recorded as present for sessions when he has been picked up then highlight the discrepancies, take a copy and state that he has had X amount of illegal exclusions. You are requesting these are formally recognised as such and will be recorded as such in future, or you will have no choice other than to write to OFSTED.

Goal - you need them to admit they cannot meet his needs in order to push forward with an EHCP and recognised level of support - number of hours needed each week.

Good luck.

What support have the school actually put in place?
What assessments have they carried out? I don't mean for diagnosis but for analysing his behaviour and trying to assess the efficacy of any interventions they put into place to help him.
What about the local authority? They should have an outreach service for schools to access, specialist teachers and educational psychologists can help if the SENCo is too shit to make any decent suggestions to support the class teacher and TA in supporting the little lad.

He is entitled to mainstream education and they need to make some effort to be inclusive, they can't just put him on a part time timetable with no actual plan or targeted support to help him integrate back into full time. Have they applied for an EHCP if his behaviour is affecting his ability to learn?

@ComeAllYeFaithful

Exclusion is a stands response to violence. Nobody should be hit, adult or child and it’s not fair to have him around if he’s behaving that way, so I do understand why they are doing that.

It sounds like he would be better in a school more suited to his needs x

This is exactly the kind of disgusting attitude that means very young children are set up to fail in their academic careers.

You can't just shove every child that doesn't fit the mould into a specialist setting; not least because there's no bloody spaces available in them. SEN is massively underfunded and a differentiated approach to discipline is part of making reasonable adjustments which is a requirement for schools that don't want to fall foul of disability discrimination.

@Patapouf So it's fine for other children to suffer violence? What about the impact on them?

What if the victims have additional needs? Would it count then?

Thanks @SequinsandStiIettos

She has just this week been in touch with an Inclusion officer at the County Council, who has been in touch with school and told them they're not managing things correctly. She's told school they need to put someone in the class who can build a relationship with him.

She's told school they need to put someone in the class who can build a relationship with him.

Are the LEA funding this ‘someone’?

Some of you just aren't getting it...It isn't that exclusion is not applicable for extreme behaviour - it is that illegal exclusions are underhand and do not address the problem so the child is being failed. The onus here has to be getting the school to admit they cannot meet the child's needs and that they need extra support or special school placement (that the LEA won't want to pay for). Differentiated teaching methods are not a cure-all. SEN budgets are slashed. EHCPs are like gold dust then not always implemented. The government will pay Ofsted 24million to speed up their monitoring cycles instead of funding Special Needs Education. Thousands of kids are being failed by a system that will fight tooth and nail not to give the provision needed.

@Appuskidu

She's told school they need to put someone in the class who can build a relationship with him.

Are the LEA funding this ‘someone’?

No idea, doubt it, especially as he's not got an EHCP yet. But I can understand that a teacher - child relationship is key. Or TA - child. I don't think the Inclusion officer necessarily meant one to one. Not sure. I think he got on better with his Yr1 teachers.