School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

he can verbalise all of this well

What he may not be able to do, is to understand how other people are reacting to him or the effect of his own behaviour on others. He can see the effect "the teacher is watching me..." but not have the understanding or planning ability to deal with it ".... so I wont get involved in a play-fight". He might not be making that connection. And that causes a feeling of anxiety and helplessness, as if his social world is full of unexpected booby traps and he is being blamed. And he may not understand the social boundaries of acceptable behaviour, that it's OK to scuffle in the playground but not to headbutt. Or he may know but not have enough focus at the time to restrain himself.

This is not stuff that can be quickly learnt from simple discipline, at least not for him. If it was then he wouldn't be doing it! He needs specialist support to acquire those skills and improve his abilities.

This a very tough situation all round.

My relative is now talking about having to give up work...

Yes, I gave up work for a while though DS stayed in school. I used the time to really fight for the help DS needed. And to make the phone calls and send emails and contact support groups and services and attend the endless meetings and diagnostic sessions. It's not at all joined up and for a while just finding out where to get help was a fulltime job!

@AmaryllisNightAndDay that sounds spot on. I wouldn't have thought out was thaaaat unusual in a 6yo, I've heard before that empathy for example develops around age 7? (And that's certainly what I'm clinging onto with my own Dd!) But what's different is his action. My Dd can get away with things (for now) because she reacts in an emotional way. My relatives ds reacts in a physical way.

Encourage them to look at social stories, Carol Grey is one of the leading names in them.

A simple social story may begin to help him develop the skills to know how to respond in different situations. Again it takes time and repetition but they can help

My relatives ds reacts in a physical way.

Oh yes... how I used to wish DS would just burst into tears, or give way and retreat from a conflict. But no. He'd dig in and argue back no matter who. And then it esacaltes. Under extreme stress everyone has an instinctive fight/ flight/ freeze reaction. Some kids get to that instinctive state too quickly (so you see them hit out or shut down or run off) and for some of those the go-to is "fight" every time. Sigh!

Maturity does help, but success is depends on whether the maturity is keeping up with extra demands and expectations as kids get older.

Thanks both of you! @Sirzy @AmaryllisNightAndDay

They have to safe guard the other children. Get them to speak to the senco and ask for a urgent Ed psych report . He may need an echp which will offer the school more money to pay for support
I have a son with an And in my experience some schools have no idea how to cope or want to . I visited 20 primaries before I found one that would take him on and he has no behavioural issues just learning difficulties .

I work with violent autistic children in mainstream school. Your relative needs to speak to the SENCO to make a plan but they won't get an EHCP without a SEN diagnosis. It's difficult because a lot of the behaviour you've described would likely be reduced or eliminated with 1-1 support, but again without a diagnosis, the school won't have funding for this.
I'd start with asking for him to have a visual timetable and a safe space made available to him, where he can go to calm down when needed.

but they won't get an EHCP without a SEN diagnosis

This isn’t true. You can get an EHCP and 1:1 without a diagnosis. The child has SEN whether or not he has a diagnosis.

I visited 20 primaries before I found one that would take him on and he has no behavioural issues just learning difficulties .

There are limited reasons LAs can refuse to name your preferred school in the EHCP, and in your case it sounds unlawful.

OP, the school can apply for high needs funding whilst waiting for the EHCP. They do not need a diagnosis to do this.

I wouldn't have thought out was thaaaat unusual in a 6yo, I've heard before that empathy for example develops around age 7?

But his behaviour is extreme enough to affect his ability to be in school. Most children have not hit a teacher so he is unusual, and if he is repeatedly aggressive then he could easily be permanently excluded from that school and maybe from others. I know one child who was out of education for 2 years before the right school was found for him, so this is potentially serious. He does need help.

The Senco/Ed psych is one route; another is to go back to the GP and point out how extreme his behaviour really is and how bad the effects of it are on him (and others) and that he is in real danger of being excluded from education altogether. The school should back the parents up with that route too maybe via the SENCO. It may be possible to get an ECHP or other funded help without a dignosis but it is easier to get help with a diagnosis.

I found it was a good idea to chase up multiple routes at the same time. DS's school actually recommended that to me! But they were a very good school, which this one isn't.

@ThirdElephant

So, they're basically teaching him that if he misbehaves enough he gets to go home early and have a day off the next day?

I'm not surprised they're seeing no improvement!

The same happened with my Dd she knew if she misbehaved she would be sent home from school. It got to the point we was being called in daily to collect her early. First few times she was collected without any official paperwork then the next time we was called we told them we was only going to collect if it was done the official way. 42 exclusions later she was permanently excluded. I told the school sending her home was not the answer because she saw it has a reward for her bad behaviour. I understood why she was being sent home but it was making thing worse not better. After she was permanently excluded she was diagnosed with ADHD and ASD I always knew she had seen but the school just had her down has the naughty kid.

Have you emailed school OP?

I agree with NightAndDay - you need to be extremely organised and chase five different things at the same time including GP, school, agencies etc taking detailed notes of everyone you speak to date time, like a crime inspector or a lawyer with a file noting down everything - you need to be really organised.

But let's be honest School is your major problem here because there are tonnes of things they could do without an SN diagnosis and without an EHCP. they could already put in place about five things I can think of off the top of my head tomorrow if they chose to but they're clearly not going to.

so you have a major problem there. but a quick email today asking them to put in place certain things would probably be a good start?

Ask Mn to move this thread to the SN section for starters?

@Oblomov21 he's not my child he's a relatives child, I'm just trying to help her. What she's asked is what would a good school be doing in this situation so she knows what to ask for. I've got 10 pages of mixed ideas (and a bit of the usual mumsnet Ness) on here so I'll probably leave it where it is, have a chat with my relative over a big cup of tea, and come back onto the sn board if there's anything she wants me to follow up. Thank you :)

No, they make an appointment for the Ed Psych to come in. And she does the assessment. So essentially, yes, the school "does" it.

It depends where. Where I live the diagnosis for ASC and ADHD can be done by a clinical psychologist or paediatritian but not an educational psychologist. Ed psychs can diagnose dyslexia but that's about all.

This is one of the things that makes navigating "the system" so hard - there isn't just one system, there are many different systems and they're organised differently in different places.

This sounds like my daughter at that age. I can tell all the judgemental idiots she was in far more pain and distress than any other child in her class.

She got an ASD diagnosis at 8 and we moved her soon after to another mainstream primary who promised so much but didn’t really understand her needs. She ended up in ESMH special school for a year but only because the PRU was full. It’s a very long and drawn out story but she is now in a very popular mainstream secondary and there hasn’t been a violent outburst in about 3 years as she now has an EHCP in place and her needs are being met. She is happy, has lots of friends and is doing well academically.

Children want to behave well. I can’t believe a little 6 year old is inherently bad. He needs the adults around him to make it possible for him to manage in school. It is possible if the will is there.

@HelplessProcrastinator

This sounds like my daughter at that age. I can tell all the judgemental idiots she was in far more pain and distress than any other child in her class.

She got an ASD diagnosis at 8 and we moved her soon after to another mainstream primary who promised so much but didn’t really understand her needs. She ended up in ESMH special school for a year but only because the PRU was full. It’s a very long and drawn out story but she is now in a very popular mainstream secondary and there hasn’t been a violent outburst in about 3 years as she now has an EHCP in place and her needs are being met. She is happy, has lots of friends and is doing well academically.

Children want to behave well. I can’t believe a little 6 year old is inherently bad. He needs the adults around him to make it possible for him to manage in school. It is possible if the will is there.

she was in far more pain and distress than any other child in her class.

Oh, of course she was.

I don't doubt for a second that she was in distress. And her distress matters a lot. But why do you feel the need to compete and insist that she was suffering so much more than others? That reflects very poorly on you and if anything shows a failure to empathise with how tricky class dynamics can harm children of all sorts (including those with undiagnosed ANs, or with ANs you may not be aware of, or those who are profoundly introverted and don't express their needs outwardly...).

You child matters. So do other children.

What do you suggest then Innocenta? Withdraw education from these children? Or implement better support then they stop being violent and everyone gets what they need.

I probably used to think like you until this happened to my child.

@HelplessProcrastinator

I wonder how the children head butted by him felt?

I wonder how the children enjoying a lesson and then repeatedly abruptly ending because of yet another outburst
I wonder how many children are scared of him

Happy1982ish do you think this child is responsible for this disruption though, this 6 year old. What would you suggest? I have seen what a positive attitude and great support in school can do. Life changing for the child and their family and obviously less distressing and disruptive for the rest of the

@HelplessProcrastinator

What do you suggest then Innocenta? Withdraw education from these children? Or implement better support then they stop being violent and everyone gets what they need.

I probably used to think like you until this happened to my child.

I completely, 100% agree that any child who is distressed should receive support. I think it's awful that they don't. I have never voted Tory, and I never will. I have teacher friends who are absolutely furious about the Tories' attitude to education and how they view attainment, progress, inclusion and diversity.

I highly doubt our views are as far apart as you think. I am not neurotypical myself, I had additional needs as a child and am now a severely disabled adult. I think disability inclusion is incredibly important and widely neglected. I used to do a lot of campaigning about this when my own health was better.

The only thing I disagreed with in your post was the fact that you claimed to know how the other children felt. I think your child deserves an equal education. I think your child deserves inclusion and respect. I think it's only where the other children come into it that we are disagreeing.

Rest of the class

I’d be very surprised if my all my DD’s class mates wanted to die as much as she did but I’m bowing out as we’re not going to agree. I’m a bloody amazing parent and never expected to be the naughty child’s parent. It’s been humbling and I have had to question a lot of my own prejudices.

@HelplessProcrastinator

Happy1982ish do you think this child is responsible for this disruption though, this 6 year old. What would you suggest? I have seen what a positive attitude and great support in school can do. Life changing for the child and their family and obviously less distressing and disruptive for the rest of the

It’s fact the school doesn’t have the capability to deal with the behaviour he presents

Crap school. No escaping that.

But that’s unlikely to change in the short term or even longer term

Meaning 32 other children suffer from broken lessons, high drama and some actually physical harm and no doubt fear

@HelplessProcrastinator

I’d be very surprised if my all my DD’s class mates wanted to die as much as she did but I’m bowing out as we’re not going to agree. I’m a bloody amazing parent and never expected to be the naughty child’s parent. It’s been humbling and I have had to question a lot of my own prejudices.

Nothing I said was prejudiced. Why are you so convinced that you know how all the other children felt?