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Parenting

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School want 5yo to be removed.

298 replies

Indecisivelurcher · 01/12/2021 14:36

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

OP posts:
RockinHorseShit · 03/12/2021 10:31

The school need to step up instead of managing him out.

Don't de register him as advised above, the school then have no legal duty of care to educate him. If they can't teach him in a school setting & are excluding him (which doesn't sound legal this way) they need to provide home EOTAS tutors

& I agree this does sound like autism, poor might sounds totally overwhelmed by the classroom setting/noise/lights etc. Our friends DS was exactly like this at this age. He'd either explode or run. A big clue should have been him getting into trouble for breaking into the school at break time... to get away from the playground noise. Unfortunately it wasn't & took another couple of years to get a diagnosis

flippertyop · 03/12/2021 11:31

@Floundery he is not being excluded beide he is disabled. He is being excluded because he is a risk to others and disrupting lessons for 30 other children

Floundery · 03/12/2021 11:35

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RockinHorseShit · 03/12/2021 11:42

he is not being excluded beide he is disabled. He is being excluded because he is a risk to others and disrupting lessons for 30 other children

Yes he is, the school are not supporting him to engage in classroom settings correctly, nor getting to the bottom of his outbursts which sound very anxiety/overwhelmed driven. until they adequately support his disability in the school setting, they haven't done enough for this exclusion to be legal & non discriminatory

watchingrnfire · 03/12/2021 11:43

I understand but at the same time his behaviour is not fair and acceptable towards teachers and class mates.
There's a couple of kids in my children's classes who are under the headline of anger management problems. These particular kids hit, punch, push, other classmates on a regular basis, my children have been victim of this. I can't tell you how angry it makes me when my child is poked in the eyes, punched in the stomach, thrown to the ground because they have anger issues. I don't care. I have told my children to defend themselves, I will not tolerate children with anger issues getting away with vile behaviour, because that is essentially what is happening. It's absolutely no excuse. Their parents need to get them professional help, you can't expect the school to deal with it. If it means children and teachers are protected by them not being in school, then so be it.

Floundery · 03/12/2021 11:48

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 03/12/2021 12:05

There's a couple of kids in my children's classes who are under the headline of anger management problems.

When you say "headline" you surely mean "you have no idea what is behind the problem". As a parent and not their parent you wouldn't be told what SEN they have or what steps are being taken.

Legally the parents of an aggressive child are required to send that child to school unless they are formally excluded by the school or withdrawn by the parents for homeschooling (in which case they will get no support at all and lose entitlement to special school etc) Parents can't just get professional help as you imagine, they often need support from the school just to get past the GP to be referred for professional help. Taking the child out of school achieves nothing.

If you start your own thread then you could get advice on how to tackle your school about your own children's safety. But this thread is not the place for it.

MollysDolly · 03/12/2021 12:41

@watchingrnfire

I understand but at the same time his behaviour is not fair and acceptable towards teachers and class mates. There's a couple of kids in my children's classes who are under the headline of anger management problems. These particular kids hit, punch, push, other classmates on a regular basis, my children have been victim of this. I can't tell you how angry it makes me when my child is poked in the eyes, punched in the stomach, thrown to the ground because they have anger issues. I don't care. I have told my children to defend themselves, I will not tolerate children with anger issues getting away with vile behaviour, because that is essentially what is happening. It's absolutely no excuse. Their parents need to get them professional help, you can't expect the school to deal with it. If it means children and teachers are protected by them not being in school, then so be it.
What's anger issues then? You think a child, for no reason other than it's a Tuesday, thinks, I'll just wander over to that child, and hit them in the eye.

Do they have additional needs, that the school are doing nothing to assist the diagnosis process, or putting in measures to help the child? Do they need medication to help with the condition they have, but won't receive it for another two years, because that's how long it takes the parents to fight the school and GP to get a costly assessment. Has it ever crossed you mind what life is like for this child, living with a medical condition that no one helps them with. Parents of the other children furious and labelling them the "vile" angry child.

Is the child witnessing such behaviour at home, and thinks it's the way to respond to anything they don't like? All sorts of measures need to be taken in the circumstances. "Vile" eh?

Is another child, a bully, but sneaky and crafty. The teachers don't see little John whispering to Fred that he's scum. They don't see little John creep into the classroom at break to tip water all over Fred's bag. They don't see little John quietly chanting "your mum is a pig" three places behind Fred in the dinner queue. But boy, do they see little John screaming and crying to them when after a week of this, little Fred has whacked him. "Vile" eh?

It's not ok that other children are on the receiving end of Fred's anger, wherever it comes from No one's suggesting that at all. But as a society, the solution isn't throw Fred out of education, because then "I'm ok Jack".

You have a problem with the "vile behaviour" of children in your DC class. You understand that it is a legal requirement that these children attend the school they have been placed in? Just like yours. So instead of name calling, get on to the school. What are they doing about it? If they aren't going to help the child exhibiting this behaviour, do they think you find it acceptable as it's detrimental to your DC. So are they going to help this child or not. Because not, and the consequences for you DC are not acceptable. So they either put in adequate measures for the other child, properly, or if they plan on always doing nothing, they ensure your children are safe.

Platax · 03/12/2021 15:07

[quote flippertyop]@Floundery he is not being excluded beide he is disabled. He is being excluded because he is a risk to others and disrupting lessons for 30 other children [/quote]
But what the school is doing about that is imposing illegal exclusions instead of complying with its legal duty to investigate his SEN and take steps to meet them. Apart from anything else, blatantly disobeying the law doesn't set the best example to the pupil body as a whole.

Who knows, if they actually tried to meet his needs he would stop being disruptive and a risk, despite being in school full time. Win-win, surely.

Platax · 03/12/2021 15:09

Their parents need to get them professional help, you can't expect the school to deal with it. If it means children and teachers are protected by them not being in school, then so be it.

Well yes, you absolutely can expect the school to deal with it because that is their duty by law, and they receive funding for that purpose. The route to professional help for children in schools requires school support anyway, it's much harder to get an EHC Plan without their support.

Happy1982ish · 03/12/2021 15:31

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Floundery · 03/12/2021 15:43

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Happy1982ish · 03/12/2021 15:48

I personally angry am at the school rather than the child

But the situation is very unlikely to change in short term

Meanwhile 32 children suffer.

Floundery · 03/12/2021 15:55

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 03/12/2021 15:59

I’d like to see much more money lobbed at supporting SN kids. But I would say that because I have one. Demonizing children who are already being failed by the school, the LA and the health service doesn’t help the NT ones either.

What this thread shows is that money spent supporting the SN kids is worthwhile for the whole class because it stops all the other kids' education being disrupted as well.

Happy1982ish · 03/12/2021 16:02

He’s 6

I imagine there’s very serious pressure on the school from the parents of those that have been head butted by the child and the parents of those that have come home and repeatedly said that their favourite lesson has to stop because he had a violent episode or they had to come in from being outside doing an activity because he kicked off.

I would be one of those parents

Floundery · 03/12/2021 16:40

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Streamingbannersofdawn · 03/12/2021 16:44

@Benjispruce5

Special schools don’t really exist for chn in the op. They are for more extreme difficulties. It really is dire in state schools. I wish the country would wake up and stop voting Conservative.
They do exist. Schools with a specialism is Social Emotional and Mental Health (SEMH schools). They tend to be independent, expensive and not necessarily in your local authority.

I thought that all special schools were for profound and multiple disabilities but that isn't the case at all.

Benjispruce5 · 03/12/2021 16:52

Not state schools then which is what I was meaning.

Imitatingdory · 03/12/2021 17:17

This thread is depressing reading.

Benjispruce5 they don’t need to be state schools. It is possible to get non-maintained special schools, section 41 special schools and wholly independent special schools named in EHCPs. LAs don’t like it because it can be expensive, but it is possible.

Indecisivelurcher · 03/12/2021 18:15

I'm pretty depressed by some of the responses tbh! I know what to correct from mumsnet by now though. There have been some really helpful suggestions mixed in!

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 03/12/2021 18:35

Sorry for thread derails OP. I hope the school steps up and the your relative gets the support he needs Flowers

Indecisivelurcher · 03/12/2021 23:44

Correct = expect!

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