Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

Longines, no it was an individual email to me asking if we thought DS would like to attend.

Re his gymnastics clothes, he wears sports leggings and a t shirt. He's pretty skinny, so the leggings are baggy around the crotch (I'm lolling at the absurdity of typing this).

I've actually just had a very unsuccessful chat with him about correcting others when they think he's a girl. Basically he doesn't want to correct them. He knows he can't be in a girls' competition etc, but he's quite comfortable with being mistaken for a girl, and wants to maintain the status quo. I tried to open up the conversation more, but he got upset and refused to engage any more

Basically he doesn't want to correct them. He knows he can't be in a girls' competition etc, but he's quite comfortable with being mistaken for a girl, and wants to maintain the status quo

Well, I guess that's successful in that you definitely know where he stands on the issue now!

I'd be careful when dealing with school in light of this.

I’m so confused. I have a child who is near that age. We’ve never ever discussed what gender they are. What they play with. Or what they are called

I’m genuinely confused as to why this at his age even comes up in discussion? Why is everyone so concerned about this? If he wants long hair. The. So be it? If he doesn’t want to speak up. Then try and show him the way?

Saying to the teachers Ofer and over that he’s a boy is not making a fuss? In fact it’s showing him that you CAN do whatever you want. Be confident.

I’m confused as to why it’s even a question?

With regards to the toilets

The school NEED to be dealing with this. This is something you can’t just errrrr over. He’s a boy. He’s allowed to use the boys toilet. The school need to back him up

Herring - with my two older "gender conforming" children it never came up, and the reason it came up with DS is that from an early age he would be challenged by others on why (for example) he was wearing a dress. It would have been impossible to not talk about it.

Re: "it's not making a fuss", actually it does get to the point where it's no longer a casual and matter of fact "oh by the way, he's a boy" because other people really do seem to have a very hard time grasping it (see my numerous previous posts). I think this is a combination of people a) simply not computing what I'm saying when the visual evidence is to the contrary, or b) people thinking that he's trans and needs affirmation, in spite of what I'm saying.

It's all very well now him being happy to be mistaken for a girl, but that's not something that will continue long term, which could cause him great discomfort

I would be going very basically supportive...you can dress/do whatever you like, but you are still and always will be male.

In fact it’s showing him that you CAN do whatever you want. Be confident.

It's not that simple anymore. OP's DS has more than likely already had conversations, with adults other than OP, about how he 'feels' and whether he feels like he's a boy or a girl.

It's very difficult to simply be a gender non-conforming child now. You wear dresses, like glitter, grow your hair long? You are a girl.

And that's really, really fucking sad.

Just come across this thread today and have read the first 7 pages but not TFT! I can sympathise, I have a 7 year old DD who has short hair and dresses like a boy (and loves it when she is mistaken for a boy, in fact if asked she will say boy). I too have the repeated conversations "Is this your son?" "Well, daughter" "Oh sorry, well he...." "She" "Sorry, he was...." and so it goes on. A new teacher wrote something in her reading record about "his reading" so I crossed it out and put "HER" but was never sure if she just assumed boy from her appearance or if she was humouring her or thinking she was being pc. She has a very small feminine face so doesn't actually look that boyish. If it's someone I probably won't ever see again I sometimes don't bother to correct them, I can see why they would think she was a boy and tbh I can't be bothered with having to explain that the boys clothes/shoes/haircut is all down to her and not me filling a void for a son in my life. I am awaiting developments and letting her dress the way she wants. I would be amazed if she ever grows out of this (it started when she was 3) but do live in hope that she will.

Mcmooberry - yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I mean! It's been very frustrating on this thread trying to explain why it's been difficult to set things straight. I can understand why other posters don't believe it, but that's the way it is.

Okmaybenot - yes, exactly.

OK - so he likes the idea that he's being mistaken for a girl.
I didn't like being mistaken for a boy when I was a child, but I know many girls do.
So this needs to be part of the conversation.
It's fun to confuse adults and to be mistaken for a girl, but he isn't a girl and he can't become a girl. He's a bit old (but only just) to think you can literally become the opposite sex, by changing your outfit.
As well as being fun to confuse adults, it's also a great thing to be different - to be the boy in the dress with long hair, to be the one that educates adults that boys can have long hair.
It sounds like you are trying to make him be his own advocate which is good. He needs to understand that he can be just as "different" while stating the truth rather than finding it fun to hide the truth.

This is a more recent difficulty as now when he uses the gents, the men think a girl has wandered in. This either makes them uncomfortable and/or DS embarrassed.

Decent men would be embarrassed, but there are plenty of others who would see an opportunity. You’ve been very calm and tolerant, OP, and in a perfect world DS would have drifted through this phase and forgotten about it. But a child’s world today is too highly sex-stereotyped.

He is reaching a dangerous age, OP. He’s going out into the world where you can’t protect him from sexual predators. But he’s also at risk from all those education and health professionals who have been ‘trained’ by transgender lobby groups to steer children towards transing.

You really need to take a firmer stand against adults calling him a girl. You won’t be undermining him, you’ll be counteracting the trans propaganda that really will undermine him.

He may or may not be gay, but if he is, you are exactly the kind of loving, supportive parent he needs to come out happily.

I really feel for you OP. Unfortunately it seems the people doing the misgendering can be split into 2 camps :

1. those who just don't listen/pay attention and purely go by stereotypical gender looks (long hair, sparkly clothes etc) and
2. those who are pushing the trans/woke agenda.

I would just keep on stressing to him that he can be a boy and still love "girly" things. And keep on reinforcing to others that he is a boy.

FYI my son is late teens, wears fabulous make-up (think youtuber James Charles), nail polish and clothes (and happens to be gay). He chooses clothes from both male and female sections of clothing stores, but is happily a male and in no way wants to be a female.

Good luck to you both, stay strong, keep on positively affirming that it is OK to be a male and love "girly" things.

Gymnastics update: just had a chat with the teacher, and it went well. I checked to see if DS has asked to be called she, and he hasn't. She'd just (understandably) been mistaken :-). She now knows he's a boy and will address him accordingly.

Apparently it's fine for him to carry on doing the "girl" stuff (which at this point is literally just a difference in the "pose" they do at the end of a move). He doesn't want to do any competitions, so that's not going to be an issue. She also noted that she had this chat with another parent the other day, and he's far from alone. She was very chilled about it all.

Interestingly, when you join British Gymnastics one of the questions is about whether the participant identifies as the gender they were born as. That's the first time I have been asked that (so said no for her). My DD has stopped gymnastics now as it was too girly for her although her twin sister has continued.

Who knew? .... have a proper chat and get stuff sorted. It’s really quite easy.

Whattodo - again, I query your capacity to empathise with someone who is finding something difficult. I started this thread as after nearly a decade of "keeping it simple", I'd hit a stumbling block. I've had plenty of helpful replies on this thread, and have come out the other side feeling clearer and more confident again. Your replies on the other hand have come across as dismissive and/or sneery, and . I'm not sure if that tone is deliberate or not, but you might want to consider that when posting in future, as the effect was the opposite of helpful!

Like I said previously, I absolutely can empathise ... but I truly feel you’ve made things so much more complicated than they need be. If you’d corrected things immediately as you were initially chatting then there would have been no stress/worry etc. I’m not the only one who has said this on this thread.

I’m pleased you’ve got this one thing sorted ... you could have had it sorted so much sooner.

Gosh, this is such a sad/frustrating situation and I really feel for you OP! This is why all this trans stuff causes harm as well as good. Its so shitty that kids can't just be kids and dress how they like without making some statement about gender these days. I had a friend when i was little, a boy, who liked dresses. It was fine, he was still a boy. I really feel like trans ideology is reinforcing gender stereotypes and that is my biggest issue with it. I don't have kids yet, am pregnant with my first, and I really hope that if my children are in any way gender non-conforming I can encourage them to be proud in the 'sex' they are while still gender bending the stereotypes.
I wonder if perhaps even if it upsets your son, it would still be better for him in the long run to establish the boundaries in terms of the fact he is a boy... ? I get not wanting to make a fuss and I also imagine it could push him further into the girl gender if he feels pressured by you the other way so it's not an easy feat.
It might be worth writing a letter to the school about this - outlining your thoughts and that you feel he is being forced into another gender and this is reinforcing stereotypes etc... I think many people don't consider the fact this stuff actually reinforces gender stereotypes and just need to be made aware and then they might see th elight. They just think they are being woke and inclusive (both of which are worthy aims of course) but a discussion does need to be had about the repercussions in different directions.
Also this whole situation reinforces my concerns around this ideology - concerns which for the most part are often dismissed because apparently no child is forced into being trans, they just know, etc. But this seems to be a clear example of a child not confirming to stereotypes, and so being assumed to be trans.
Not good!

Whattodo - I think if you re-read the posts from people who are actually experiencing parenting a kid who is "gender non-conforming" you'll see that it isn't really that simple. Your insistence that I could have somehow avoided any of this with a "simple chat" comes across as ignorant (take a look on the LGBT kids section or the FWR section if you want to see how muddled everything can get).

Comments like "I’m pleased you’ve got this one thing sorted ... you could have had it sorted so much sooner" are unnecessarily negative. I wouldn't dream of saying this sort of thing to someone because as far as I can see it serves no purpose other than to try and make them feel a bit shit / inadequate / stupid etc. I do hope you can take this on board, as Mumsnet works best when we support each other as human beings, rather than undermine each other.

Could he be telling them that he's a girl ?

The idea that some boys just ‘like’ dresses is way too simplistic. The OP’s son likes to pass as a girl. From a very early age, kids love dressing up as they know clothes give signals.

A 10 year old boy (who has said he likes the status quo and does not correct people who say he is a girl) wearing skirts, girls’ shoes with long hair and a sparkly tie is stating ‘I am a girl’ very clearly and is well aware of it. The fact he verbally professes to being a boy is a contradiction.

The question, to me, is why. He clearly gains positive attention from at least some quarters. I do not note the OP mentioning a husband or significant male in her son’s life. It seems there either isn’t one or there is and he is not that important. So he is seeing a successful powerful eloquent mother and wants to emulate her, maybe. Nothing wrong with that but, again, in my opinion, sending out ‘girl’ signals through dress and not correcting people who mistake him for a girl is a hop, skip and a jump from wanting to be a girl.

At the least, I think boys who dress as girls should have a meaningful discussion about WHY they are doing it. I really doubt 10 year olds want to challenge ‘gender norms’ (except to please their parents). They are trying on identities to see where they fit in the world and he is trying on a female identity.

wank .... I don’t need to look on the LGBT forum ... your ds is not lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, so it’s irrelevant. You could easily have sorted the particular problems you mention much sooner than you did.

In no way am I ignorant or lacking empathy. Why we can’t all live in a world that accepts each other for who we are is beyond me.

I am simply responding to your particular way of not dealing with things in a more effective way initially.