Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

Hearhooves, I quite agree. The other thing I'm noticing is how I've got a bit of flak in some quarters for "making too much of a fuss about it" and being "attention seeking" and "woke". The fact is that as DS is a classic "neglected subsequent child" I've mostly been quite low key about it all. And one of the key things I've taken away from this is that I probably do need to make more of a "fuss" (ie emphasise with loud and dogged insistence that he's a boy, and firmly resist others' attempts to categorise him as a girl).

Hearhooves,

No one has mentioned transing on this thread, save to warn against it.

I find it fascinating how, in the attempt to halt the trans gender lobby, the right to wear whatever clothing one likes has been almost fetishised. They are clothes, to keep you warm. Children, up to a point, will wear what their parents offer (or encourage them to) for them or what fits in with their peers.

He’s definitely still a boy. Not sure anyone on this thread has said otherwise. But chances that he’ll be mistakenly called ‘hen’ etc go up.

But there are a lot of posters saying that he should dress as a typical boy because otherwise he is presenting as a girl.

Why can't boys and men wear whatever they want, just as girls and women can? Trousers aren't considered male clothing and that anyone wearing them must be a man so why can't men wear a sparkly jumper without being assumed to be either a woman or trying to present as a woman?

If somebody said to my five year old daughter ‘hello young man’, I can’t even imagine a situation where she or I would not immediately correct them. That is why I think he would benefit from talking to a counsellor.

Haggistramp - perhaps you didn't read my post from about 40 minutes ago elaborating on that. Understandable as it's a long thread, but it's tedious to have to keep explaining.

No one has mentioned transing on this thread, save to warn against it.

But one view on the feminism board is that young children who express a liking for toys or clothes typically associated with the opposite sex are almost pushed into transing by rigid stereotypes ie those clothes/toys are for girls therefore if I like them I must be a girl. That is what is being reinforced on this thread.

He can wear what he wants but it’s going to increase the likelihood that people are mistaken because it’s not the usual and people don’t think or look beyond a fleeting look. People don’t blink at girls in trousers because it is not unusual.

So it might feel like you have to rail against people getting it wrong when it’s just a series of mistakes based on some clues.

Pattiprice - ditto what I just said to haggistramp.

Why can't boys and men wear whatever they want, just as girls and women can? Trousers aren't considered male clothing and that anyone wearing them must be a man so why can't men wear a sparkly jumper without being assumed to be either a woman or trying to present as a woman?*

As a teacher your job is safer if you call a boy who wants to be "he" "she " than if you call a boy who wants to be called "she" "he"

Even adults would wonder what pronouns to use with gender non-conforming adults. I suspect that most adults would use female pronouns for an adult in a dress because they see it as less likely to piss the person off if they are wrong.

Do these people genuinely mistake ds for a girl or are they saying she as a misguided attempt to say the "right" thing?

Have you considered helping him come up with a funny one-liner to use when people call him "she"? The other kids will respect a funny comment when adults get it wrong.

Strawberrylipgloss - yes, wise words there

People don’t blink at girls in trousers because it is not unusual

Because it has been so since the 1800s. I might be wrong but I am not getting the impression that the OP’s child is trying to change public perception.

What would you think if your elderly father or grandfather decided to wear dresses or skirts and high heels from now on? You cannot berate people fir not knowing what to say.

I am not having a go. I feel for that little boy.

AJP - in the great majority of cases in sure it's a genuine mistake. I'm not entirely sure about the gymnastics teacher, as there were a few signifiers that he's a boy when he started (the forms, my introduction), but I can imagine that might have all got glossed over by accident. I'm curious to see what she says when I speak to her next week!

But the school thing really threw me as they obviously know he's a boy AND we had a meeting a few weeks ago to clarify any support needs around his gender non-conformity. I was extremely clear that he has not asked to "be a girl", but that he's a boy who likes"girly" things. Their invitation to this girls' event is so contrary to this, although I have no doubt that it was intended well! I've sent them an email explaining why I think it's completely inappropriate, and how this is actually a good opportunity to model firm boundaries for him (that although he likes "girly" stuff, and plays mostly with girls, he's still very much a boy, and that's fine).

PattiPrice

But it's never going to change is it? Some shops are now doing away with boys and girls sections for clothing but unless public attitudes change it's not going to do much. This just feels like enforcing stereotypes.

Pattiprice, I'm wondering what you would think if your elderly father started wearing a dress and high heels?

But it's never going to change is it? Some shops are now doing away with boys and girls sections for clothing

Yes. More for quality and colour than traditional forms of dressing though.

I would not assume my elderly father wanted to be a woman but I would wonder why he was dressing as a woman.

Really against stereotyping and agree male bodied people can like traditionally ascribed feminine things and still be male. Makes me so said to go down the ‘wrong body’ narrative for young children and people.

But it’s still tough to be gender non-conforming and as puberty approaches he may need more support (not least that sometimes girls who’ve had a boy in their crowd can turn a bit as secondary starts). I’d want to know how the girls group is tackling the confidence thing. If it’s all pretty neutral - ‘you’re all interesting distinct people’ then maybe ok. But if it is going to be very sex specific and pushing role models - he might be better with more one to one mentoring or a mixed social inclusion group.

As a teacher your job is safer if you call a boy who wants to be "he" "she " than if you call a boy who wants to be called "she" "he"

^ This, with bells on.

Yes, OP - the oddest thing about the school suggesting the confidence workshop is the fact you say he is quite confident anyway so he wouldn't need it even if he did identity as a girl!

Re: the initiative for girls - it's for the whole year group, not aimed at individuals.

Unless he is a total idiot (and I am sure he is not) he must realise that he is giving others reason to think he is a girl. He must like this, otherwise he would dress differently.

if he is a benignly neglected later child, it seems all about getting the OP’s attention, and it has worked, brilliantly.

Unless you believe that there is a magic gene (or combination of genes) that makes boys like ‘sparkle’ (and, if you do, it is hard to argue against a similar set that makes a boy believe he is a girl), you need to look for psychological reasons (e.g seeking attention and approbation). After all, a boy who dresses as a girl (or, more precisely, as girls normally dress in our culture) is paying a heavy price with his own peer group. He must have a reason for this.

In what way is a boy saying "I'm a boy" trailblazing? If he wants other people to know he is a boy, he needs to be prepared to say so. He is about to start secondary school, it would be helpful if he could learn to confidently address other people's confusion while still in the small, safe waters of primary school.
I realise it must be hard, in a world where all the guidance says that a gender non-conforming boy must be trans, but you need to help him find his voice.
And as pp had said, he should not be participating in sports and support activities targeted at girls, nor should he be using women's toilets or changing spaces.

Do you think maybe your DS asked his gym teacher to be reffered to as a she ? Or maybe states ' its she' when they perhaps said he ? I find this odd from the teacher if I wasn't sure I would just use the students name and avoid the she /he situation

LarryGrylls, of course he realises why people are mistaking him for a girl. I haven't put that out there as a problem or a cause of confusion, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Re: the attention seeking thing, he gets plenty of quality time with both me and DH, and he's been more into playing with dolls etc since he could pick things up. This garnered no extra attention from me and DH as it seemed perfectly "normal". It's been a gradual process of noticing that while other little boys started to reject "girly" stuff as they got older, he didn't. I honestly think he just prefers "girly" stuff in the same way that plenty of girls are "tomboys" (but this is barely remarked upon).

ArthurandJessie - I'm absolutely sure he hasn't,as I asked him about this yesterday.