Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

Add the vote button and see what happens.

This idea that anyone can dress how they like and not be singled out for attention is not realistic. It is born out of a theory that there is no such thing as gendered behaviour. The fact that different societies and time periods choose different gender signifiers does not mean that gender signifiers do not exist or do not have importance. Ultimately, to find a heterosexual mate, the potential mate needs to know that you are the opposite sex.

Clearly OP’s son is too young to want a ‘mate’ but young children, in play, copy their elders and are quite savage about excluding those that do not fit in.

And, of course, a boy wanting to join the girls makes it awkward around puberty for the girls to discuss female issues.

Which is were parenting comes in. Of course there is nothing ‘wrong’ with a boy liking long hair, glitter and ‘sparkle’ but a parent will point out the relative importance of ‘sparkle’ versus fitting in easily with a friendship group.

I think it is really wrong comparing tomboyish girls with boys who want to present the way girls traditionally have. The former is, firstly, far more widely accepted and, secondly, much more practical, Girls should also have the right to play freely and spend hours dealing with washing and styling hair. The latter is choosing less practicality and more hard work.

Why would a boy choose the hard option both practically and from a societal viewpoint? Judging from the couple I know and threads on here, the parents (and especially the mother) claim for be understanding about their child’s choices but, IMO, are not merely understanding, but subtly encourage them.

This idea that anyone can dress how they like and not be singled out for attention is not realistic.

Which would make those doing the singling out wrong.

How people dress, who they hang around with or what hobbies they have or toys they play with doesn't dictate what sex they are. That's ridiculous.

Eh? The vote button for what?

And what's the relevance of finding a heterosexual partner?

And DS doesn't feel he's suffering socially as he has a solid group of friends (mostly girls, and a couple of boys).

And I'm bewildered about the bit about styling hair.

I'm sure you're trying to be helpful, but it's like we're not speaking the same language!

Hearhooves,

You are trying to conflate dress with toys. Gendered clothing has always existed, gendered toys are mostly a (very bad) invention of toy companies trying to split the market and sell more toys.

If adults want society to change, they need to take the risks. So, if you have a significant male other (or a father who still works), ask them to go to work in a skirt with some ‘sparkle’.

Parenting, regardless of one’s personal views, is about explaining how social rules currently work. My youngest thinks manners are a waste of time and he makes a sound logical case for not bothering with ‘pleases’ and ‘thank yous’. However society expects him to be well mannered and I will strongly encourage him to do so.

The question, to me, is the relative importance of dressing with long hair, a skirt and sparkle versus all the issues it will bring. If the OP’s son still wants to wear a skirt and be sparkly at 16, good for him. He is totally within his rights to challenge societal norms.

Wankmaster,

Washing and styling long hair takes time and effort, short hair is easy.

It is the hard option.

Washing and styling long hair takes time and effort, short hair is easy.

It is the hard option

It's not super hard to wash long hair though, is it?!?

I have long hair and I don't do anything to it.

All three of my DC (one being my DS) have long hair and only one of my DDs does any styling of her hair. The other two spend no time on their hair and just leave it natural.

"Parenting is about explaining how societal rules work" - a) he's very aware of societal norms re: gender as he's got eyes and ears and a brain. It's literally impossible to miss these rules! b) we do also have conversations about this.

You are trying to conflate dress with toys.
No.im not. I'm saying that gender and sex are different and that wearing an item of clothing or playing with a toy does not make you the opposite sex.

You understand that girls might want to wear trousers, or have short hair or like dinosaurs or play with cars not dolls, right? Basically, like things typically associated with boys, so why is it such a stretch to think that some boys might like things typically associated with girls?

I actually decided to grow my hair because I couldn't be arsed with getting it cut so often, and using styling products every day. Long hair is easy peasy imo.

We’re further on with short hair, trousers, cars for girls. As in it’s much more likely that a girl will wear trousers than a boy a skirt.

When I go to womenswear there’s a whole section for trousers but not the same for men and skirts.

It might change, if it does it has to start somewhere but in the meantime people might be mistaken. I don’t think they’re insisting on anything btw just using visual clues to make fast and unimportant (to them) decisions. Ie in a shop.

Hearhooves, I think Larry is saying that they might want to, but for their own good they should be forbidden as it's asking for trouble.

Hearhooves, I think Larry is saying that they might want to, but for their own good they should be forbidden as it's asking for trouble.

I understand that but it smacks of victim blaming to me. The only people responsible for bullying are the bullies. No one should be excusing it based on what the victim was wearing, looks like, sounds like, toys they play with or any other excuse Larry might come up with.

Hearhooves, yes quite!

FWIW im the 90's all the boys I knew had long eg: shoulder length or below hair. Long shiny hair is beautiful, it exudes health and youth, why should girls have the monopoly on this ? He is clearly an aesthetic young man as are millions and millions of men. Nowt wrong with that.

I don’t just mean school .... toilets always been a sticking point .... ?? Why? He’s a boy so when out and about, why is this a problem? Boy - boys loos, girl - girls loos. It’s not rocket science. We’ve got around that by using neutral loos .... what is there to get around? Again - boys = boys loos.

I didn't say that they've always been a sticking point. This is a more recent difficulty as now when he uses the gents, the men think a girl has wandered in. This either makes them uncomfortable and/or DS embarrassed. In an ideal world he'd feel confident enough to say "I'm a boy", but he's just not there yet, and using neutral toilets when they're available saves a bit of stress without harming anyone.

I can't help but wonder if you lack a bit of empathy and/or imagination Whattodo?

FWIW, if I as an adult was repeatedly "misgendered" and/or "challenged" when using the toilets, I would opt for the neutral loos when available. It would make sense to save hassle for me and others!

I really do think you need to do some modelling of how to say "I'm a boy" so he can be confident saying it. He's going to need to say it at some point for himself and practising will make him more confident.

Drspouse, yes I agree.

I do have empathy .... but tbh you’re messages just sound like you’re making the situation a whole lot worse when things could actually be nipped in the bud. Honestly, I just don’t get the whole loo issue. I really don’t. As for the gymnastics ... by not immediately saying “hang on, ds can’t enter that competition, it’s for girls, he’s a boy” or similar, you’ve made it all worse. Others around you at the time will then also wonder why you didn’t correct someone referring to your boy as a girl. I honestly cannot imagine many people in this same situation would let the conversation just carry on without correcting the. Then the school thing doesn’t make sense ... they know your ds is a boy, why would they suddenly mistake him for a girl?

I could absolutely understand where you’re coming from if your ds was trans ... then your issues would make sense so much more. But as it stands, he’s not and so it doesn’t.

I think you need to talk to the school so all teachers know to call him a boy.
Also agree that he needs the confidence to speak up.My DD is very socially shy,often called a boy since having short hair but us able to speak up(strangely when she briefly had her head shaved there was no confusion but there is with a pixie cut).She now 16 but this started in primary,luckily wokeness hadn't started then.

Whattodo - I wrote a post a while back explaining why I didn't correct the gymnastics teacher there and then. FWIW the teacher was mostly referring to him as "she" in a conversation about how he'd been in class that day, and the competition was only mentioned very briefly in passing as something he might be interested in in the future.

As to his school, they are not mistaking him for a girl. They know he's a boy, and I had a very clear discussion with them only a few weeks ago about how to support him (by letting him get on with enjoying so called "girly" things as a boy, and not making a big deal about it). I started this thread precisely because it was so weird for him to then be invited to a girls' event.

OP, since the parents of all girls were emailed, is it possible that an administrator who doesn't know your DS and wouldn't be aware of your meetings with teachers might have been tasked with sending the email out and made a mistake?

Im equally as baffled as another poster mentioned at how anyone could mistake your son for a girl when wearing the tight clothing required for gymnastics. Im genuinely astounded that for months they have assumed he was a girl, do they not work closely with him surely in gymnasic gear it would be so blooming obvious?

I do also think the only way to resolve the issues hes facing is for him to speak up. He's 10 years old surely he realises this would stop the issues?