Men at baby groups...

[Foxmuffin]

I might be BU but I’ve got a 3 month old baby and have been going to a few baby groups. I find it a bit off putting when partners/husbands join Mum and baby. I totally understand that women who have had sections will need help driving and possibly lifting things but have also know partners drop off and find a pub/cafe for the hour groups go on.

I’m EBF and I’ve been to a group of 9 where I was the only one BFing, with groups of new mums I feel comfortable just getting my boob out to feed, but when babies are on the bottle with men there I feel a bit uncomfortable and it kind of spoils it for me. I suppose if their partner is BFing I feel a bit more like they’ll understand. Please understand I’m not looking down at FF, it’s more that if Mum’s OH is used to seeing BFing and babies feeding for comfort for what can sometimes feel like most the group I feel they’ll understand.

My own DH went back to work after a week so I’ve been doing all these things on my own for some time. He has never been one to pander over either of us so I’ve had to do the food shop etc myself and get on without support (actually a little pandering would have been nice, but he’s not like that).

I’m probably being self conscious, I don’t mind feeding in public but in enclosed spaces I feel the need to be more discreet which then spoils baby bonding time which is why I go to these classes.

My reading of the OP is couples at baby group, which changes the dynamic, it doesn't exclude single dads, SAH dads, grandads from attending. It does mean it's not a family day out / hot date for mum and dad.

@JessicaWakefieldSV
I'm so glad you are on this thread otherwise I would be totally discouraged.

@JessicaWakefieldSV surely it depends on the type of group? A post natal breastfeeding support group could be female only but your local toddler group held in the church hall can't exclude men. Or do you think it should?

My reading of the OP is couples at baby group, which changes the dynamic, it doesn't exclude single dads, SAH dads, grandads from attending. It does mean it's not a family day out / hot date for mum and dad.

Exactly!

And whilst everyone is busy berating the OP for having the audacity to want to feel comfortable feeding her baby, remember this is a new mother who is feeling sensitive and vulnerable so maybe keep that in mind?

My husband also went to baby groups after I went back to work and sometimes was made to feel unwelcome. I think that's a real shame. If you're uncomfortable breastfeeding around men then have you considered using one of the apron like covers? Personally, I always refused to use them because I didn't want to be made to feel uncomfortable and I firmly believe that women should breastfeed anywhere anytime they want without anyone raising an eyebrow.

But if a woman personally is uncomfortable with a man being around in a baby group then I don't see much/any difference to say being in a small cafe with a male waiter, so covering might be the most practical way to deal with discomfort. Perhaps the baby groups I went to were unusual but they never felt like especially intimate settings to me. Agree with the PP that a breastfeeding support group would be a different ballgame.

Why is the OP about couples changing the dynamic?

The OP is about breast feeding in front of men, not couples.

Jessica there are mums only group. This isn't one. So who is wrong - dads who go to a group that welcomes dads or a mum who goes to said group and wants dads excluded?

You appear to be speaking about a different situation - this isn't a mums only group that a man is trying to get into. It is a group for men and women. Surely, if anyone wants a single sex group then that is what they should go to?

Are there allowed to be mum only groups anymore?

I doubt it!

Ideally, there needs to be both types of groups available. If there is an alternative group the OP can go to, then that’s the solution in this instance.

But let’s not make anyone feel bad for wanting female only spaces. I know not everyone here is doing that, some are though.

It is really sad your husband was lonely, I absolutely understand he and other fathers like him, have needs too. But women have set up these groups, and many cannot or do not want, to expose themselves in small spaces with men present. I think other women should understand this and empathise. I would think the best solution involves considering the needs of both women who want female only groups, and of both women and men who need or want groups for both. We have to include as many different people as possible, in my opinion, in public groups like this.

Surely this is what breast feeding cafes are for etc? I'm sure I have seen lots of breastfeeding cafes advertised around where I live. In fact my sister was turned away from one when she wished to attend with her breastfeeding friends because she ff (baby had a tongue tie and couldn't latch on, hospital we useless at giving any advice). So that was lovely, she was totally excluded because she couldn't get the hang of it. Was there a group especially for her? No.
Normal , bog standard baby groups should be open to all who wish to attend with a baby.

It's lovely to think we should all have lots of groups ready to cater for all different people but honestly that's never going to happen is it!

And whilst everyone is busy berating the OP for having the audacity to want to feel comfortable feeding her baby, remember this is a new mother who is feeling sensitive and vulnerable so maybe keep that in mind?

Oh come on Ivana. Your replies to many threads are positively icy no matter how vulnerable a poster might be. Nobody is berating her, she posted on AIBU and is now getting responses explaining why she is not being reasonable. That is the nature of the debate. Many people have put forward their own experience and vulnerabilities in the thread.

Yes but she has apologized and said she didn’t mean to be insensitive more than once.

I’m not sure what else people want from her.

• Yes but she has apologized and said she didn’t mean to be insensitive more than once.

I’m not sure what else people want from her.*

I'm sure she didn't mean to be insensitive, I don't think people are having a go. They are simply continuing to debate the issue she has put forward. A very important issue that shows how woefully set up our society is for mums and dads. She has apologised and that's great but mumsnet doesn't just delete the threads because someone has apologised. I wish they did in in some cases.

Is this thread for real? How on earth are women going to get partners who take their equal share in parenting when this sort of thing happens?

Dads are equal to mums. You are living in 2019. Most parents of both sexes are so knackered with a baby that they wouldn't notice a pair of boobs. Besides, your uncomfortableness is not a reason to put equal parenting back a generation.

I understand why you feel uncomfortable being a new breastfeeding mum. I also Breastfeed my 14 month old and I can honestly say they are not bothered by you breastfeeding. I love seeing dads at groups my husband would never go to one.

@Username you only have to read the thread to know that people aren’t just discussing the issue.

Most aren’t even reading before sticking the boot in!

Dads are equal to mums

Equally important but not equal as in the same. Only Mums breastfeed.

Also, only mums give birth. When you look in the mirror and don't recognise what you see, from your tattered undercarriage to your leaking breasts, when you've gone through the train crash of growing and birthing a human, when your sense of self is shaky at best and ever more elusive in the fug of nappies, 3 am feeds, bone shattering exhaustion and the overwhelming feeling that at any point you might break the baby, what you want is to be around people who know exactly what your life is and where you're at because they're living it too, because they have also been through the same physical transformation and understand the way you're feeling. And when there's someone there who doesn't, even if they are empathetic and on board and undertake xyz amount of care for an infant, the dynamic changes. It just does.

That doesn't mean excluding people or denying fathers their rights, it's just about being sensitive to women and their needs as mothers and allowing them to say what those needs are and how best they can be met. Which is never going to happen if they are jumped on every time they fail to think about men.

That doesn't mean excluding people or denying fathers their rights, it's just about being sensitive to women and their needs as mothers and allowing them to say what those needs are and how best they can be met. Which is never going to happen if they are jumped on every time they fail to think about men.

Again, there are groups mothers can go to. Breastfeeding groups!

So what we know to be true:

-Society conditions us all to believe that breasts are primarily sexual objects and "private parts" that should not be exposed in the course of normal life.

-Many women have a preference for female health practitioners and sex segregated changing rooms as they feel more comfortable around people of the same sex when in various states of undress.

-Religion, culture or a woman's past life experiences could mean that they would be prevented from breastfeeding in the presence of men.

-Breastfeeding is considered the optimal way to feed an infant and breastfeeding rates in the UK are woefully low.

-Many babies need to be fed frequently and don't like to be fed under a cover, making it difficult for a breastfeeding women to feed exclusively at home or with a good degree of privacy in public.

Considering the above, I find it incredibly frustrating that so many posters just seem to focus on their belief that men should be able to attend these groups and completely gloss over the very real issue of how we encourage and support breastfeeding women who aren't comfortable feeding their baby in the presence of men. I find the attitudes on this thread contrast strongly with threads that I've read previously on MN about men being allowed to stay over in post natal wards. Those threads suggest that women's need for privacy trump the father's desire to spend the first night(s) with their child. You could use the whole "equal parenting" argument on this scenario too so I'm not sure why MN seems to take such exception to men on these wards but shows very little sympathy to a breastfeeding mother concerned about privacy.

HaroldsSocalledBluetits
I agree and that's why it's absolutely right there are groups for mums.

However, women don't help themselves when they see a dad in a baby group and have an issue with it. The inequality surrounding parenting is only likely to change when men change (sad but true reality) and they are more involved, use flexible hours, work condensed hours, go part time equal to women, SAHP as much as women. More men seeing an active role in fatherhood, including baby groups, is part of that move so when women complain that they don't think dads should be there or the presence of dads makes things awkward they're setting equality backwards.
It reduces men to 'babysitters' of their children rather than equal parents and then we wonder why we end up with man children who claim incompetence on all things childcare and women carry the mental load.

Sorry for the tangent, it is more general than a 1-1 reply, but society needs to change and men stepping up more is crucial in that happening.

HaroldsSocalledBluetits

But then you need to go along to a group specifically for new mums only. Something like an NCT group.

I remember when my son was born - traumatic birth, c section, scbu, premature.
I really struggled post natally. I mourned not having the birth that I wanted, not having my son with me, etc. I finally felt up to going to a mother and baby group and came home bereft. All the other mum's had what I considered the perfect birth experience. Even those who'd had a c section had there babies with them, had gone home with them, had celebrated with family etc. That group devastated me. What I needed was to be with people who had had the same experience as me and who understood. I didn't go back because it upset me so much.

I don't think I'd have been right to try and ban the mum's from talking about their births just so that I felt comfortable. What I had to do was go and find a group that met my needs.

Surely that's the right way to do it? If a group doesn't meet your needs you find one that does.

Inequality is not going to be solved by women yet again being told to think about men.

Omg yabvu indeed. My dh has come along when he's off work to watch our son play!! I didn't take him to help out. Dad's miss so much bonding time and you never get those days back! In our groups we've had a few stay at home dads too when the mother has gone to work instead and I've formed friendships and meet ups with them including breast feeding women. Other men are not interested in watching women feed they want to enjoy their own child

Inequality is not going to be solved by women yet again being told to think about men.

It's not a case of "thinking about men".

Babies and children have parents. Some groups are for mums, some groups are for parents/carers. You go to the ones that meet your needs.

I've not seen anyone on here saying that mum only groups, or breast feeding groups should have to include men.

What we are saying is that it's unreasonable to exclude men from groups that are already inclusive of them.

Inequality is not going to be solved by women yet again being told to think about men.
Inequality is only going to be solved when men step up and do their fair share and parenting is viewed as a task that both sexes are equally responsible for.

Men stepping up and parenting, being at daytime baby groups, taking ownership of flexible working instead of expecting the women in their lives to do it all are part of it.
The more men step up, the more social norms change, the more men as a class see that sharing the load is an entirely normal approach and not unique. The more men play active day to day roles from early on, the less we should see this ridiculous notion (perpetuated by men and women) that dads 'babysit' their children or are 'giving the Mrs a break' because it's neither, they are just being a parent to their child.

To then complain that men are attending a group that is open to all parents is transporting us back in time, not forward.

Now if it was a women's only group, mum's group only then men have no place there at all. But an open parenting one, sorry but that's open.