madeleine mccann was not abducted because she was left in a hotel room

[rattleskuttle]

ok, i'm probably going to regret this - but i am dismayed to see the same old arguments coming up again and again about whether the mccann's were irresponsible to leave their children unsupervised in a hotel room.
it seems to be the same people posting too.
if they had taken her with them she could have still been abducted while running around while they were having their meal. i doubt they could have watched a 3yr old every second and she could have been snatched while out of sight, as happened to jamie bulger.

the person responsible is the one who abducted her, and if, sadly, it is anything to do with paedophilia, then all those people who support the industry in child porn by watching and paying for the stuff also bear some responsibility.

www.forsarah.com/html/sarahslaw.html perhaps we could all be doing something to try and stop it.

Message withdrawn

I feel very strongly about this issue because as a number of people have mentioned the McCann's are on trial here at the moment. They shouldn't of left the children. I have friends who have left their children in self catering accomodation just to go out for dinner downstairs or outside. Your on holiday and if you've done your homework on the place your visiting and it is deemed safe you believe it. I was listening on the radio a few days ago and people (namely mothers) were saying I wouldn't leave my children in the car while I filled up at the petrol station or if they have fallen asleep in the car on the driveway. It all seems so neurotic! We have turned into a society that watch are children all the time and it doesn't make them any safer. Your child is more likely to be abused by a family member or a close friend of the family than abducted by a stranger. So why are we soo caught up on protecting them from the stranger and not the menances in our own backyards so to speak.

Like so many have said on this thread I'm sure they wish things weren't as they were and they need our support not our continuous judgement. I think that is something we really struggle with in this country supporting each others decisions even if they would not be the decisions we would have made. They are parents and I am sure are in agony.

They are in agony. It's plain to see.

But leaving your children in a car for, what? Two minutes? When you go (within sight) to pay for petrol and leaving your children for half an hour in an unlocked roon with a swimming pool outside of it is a different matter, IMO.

I'm sure if we picked apart anyone's parenting we'd find holes.

Many wouldn't have done this, but there will be other things that you do do, that others would frown upon. That is bound to be the case.

I have left my Dc's in a hotel room with a listening service while I ate in the restaurant. I accpet many wouldn't do this. I however will not rent a villa with a pool as I am terrified of the dangers of children around water. But I accept many other responsible parents do this.

I have occasionally driven my children around without their booster seats. I have seen many on MN say they would never do this. Fine. I however will not allow my children any where near the top ofa climbing frame (tryin to control this but my fear of heighst gets the better of me).

My point is, we all have our own level of fear and anxiety that will affect the level of risk we are preared to take with our children.

Some see danger in the form of, peadophiles, water, heights, car crashes, disease everywhere and will take very limited risks.

Others are more relaxed, and have a presumed 'all will be well' attitude, and will take many more risks.

We all parent diffently.

Neither style 'loves' their children any more.

Neurotiv parenting of the 'I never let them out of my sight' school suggested by some does not necessarily eqaul good parenting. Nor of course necessarily bad parenting.

Can we not accept they did somethiong 'differnt to me' without the judgemental overtones?

I'm not sure that the posts (certainly over the last hour or so) have judged the parents.

There has been a discussion about small boys and swimming pools, but not much else?

But how exactly is expressing an opinion of 'I find that wrong. I wouldn't do that' always seen as judgemental when it comes to this particular case?

See, that's what some of us are trying to get our heads round.

What in particular about htis case? It sounds awful, but I can't help thinking that it's because the McCanns are the MN 'standard', if there is such a thing - white, late 30s, and well-off 'professionals'.

There, I said it.

EPIS. I started a thread three weeks ago because I hated the ' There's no BB or X Factor on at the moment. So let's discuss this one' posse.

I couldn't see anything they posted as anything but rubber-knecking. Even though they ended every weirdly gleeful post with a 'poor Maddie. '

I feel now that it's reasonable to say that I wouldn't leave my young children in an unlocked room with a pool nearby (forget the abduction, the pool would worry me) without being shouted down as a 'McCann basher.'

To say 'I find that wrong' is very differnt from saying'I wouldn't do that', Expat.

Fine to say 'I wouldn't do that' imo, but to say 'it is wrong' is to judge their parenting as lacking.

I wouldn't get a villa with a pool but I wouldn't say about parnts whose child drowned after doing so (and that happens more than abduction) that they were wron to do so. It was their differing judgement.

I might say 'I wouldn't have done that'. But to be honest I probably wouldn't even say that, unless asked, as what's the point of that for grieving parents.

Bubble, saying it's wrong is judging them.

If you feel comfortable judging poeple whilst they're in a living hell, over their differing assessment of risk as parnts. Go for it.

To me it's abhorrent.

To answer the "Why do you feel sick?"

I personally feel sick for several reasons.

1.The way people have expressed how they think they are bad Parents for not taking the little one's with them to the Vatican. (I think they made a very good choice there)

2.Going over & over again why they wouldn't have left their children in a hotel room alone, that is history now & no amount of discussing it will change the horrific situation the McCanns are dealing with!
(There are many Mum's on here who have said they would leave their child at home alone as young as 3/4!)

3.The disgust people are showing at the media coverage...I'm sure if it was your child you would do everything in your power to keep your childs face & name in the media!
(I know for a fact I would & I'd continue for as long as I could!)

Anyway, must step away from these threads now.

But it is wrong to leave small children alone in an unlocked room near a (presumably unguarded) pool. Isn't it?

Am I missing something?

Nothing discussed on here will change the hell they are going through. I've come to the conclusion that it's the posters who feel judged (whether for being overprotective or careless). These debates aren't about the McCann's but then they never were really.

That's your definition, Outraged.

It's not everyone's, however.

You put it much better than I did, Bubble.

Exactly the point I was so pitifully trying to make.

oh fucking shut up you lot

(sorry blu)

It's seen as judgemental, expat, because the person who's said 'I think that's wrong' or 'I wouldn't do that' thinks that there way is better and that's not always the case.

Enid. Are you telling me to shucking fut up?

Expat and bubble-I quite agree with you. But there seems no way to persuade some of the people on these threads of the seemingly obvious facts.

Being judgmental is good. It shows you can weigh up the merits and demerits of a situation. It's an exercise in thought and a skill worth cultivating. Being disapproving is different.

Why do you assume that automatically, Zola?

The poster could be from a different culture, or just have a different view entirely.

Why does it automatically assume smugness and 'my way is better'?

Is that a British thing to assume that?

I think that on holiday in a different location and a more relax astmosphere I can see how parents could do it.

Her way might be better. The fact that I do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. It just makes it the thing I do. To claim that it's right I'd have to make a better case than my preference.

Why else would a person say 'I wouldn't do that' unless they thought their way was better or right?

Expat, I've sat down with mothers (as I'm sure you have) have used that phrase with such superiorty in their tone that is what I have come to expect when people use that phrase. Maybe it is an English thing? I don't know but I know it happens

Ah, I see! You see, I grew up in places with a lot of violence and crime, and as a result people regularly did things considered paranoid here, but just practical and common sense in areas of high crime. And when you went on holiday, you were even more on guard when it came to crime.

This upbringing in these places made me have a different world view from a lot of folks on MN. I'm also Latina, and from a culture where large, extended families are more common than in England.

So sometimes I think, 'Hmm, must be an English/British thing', but I'd hate to go through life assuming that when someone says they wouldn't do something I would, it's because their way is better.

In fact, I think I would have found that a great source of grief, because we moved all over the world growing up and so there were many things that were done in one place, but unacceptable in another.