The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

Hadmytwo I totally agree with your post, and thankfully, so do a lot of Muslims I know.
At my sons school, there are a couple of kids who are the 'invested in ritual' types and I'm forever trying to explain away things that my boys are being told like they shouldn't be celebrating birthdays or listening to music.
There is a big push for a divisive Islam.
I don't know where the push is coming from but they are starting with the children and trying to stop them from integrating.
In my experience, it does seem to be the minority.

I'm guessing her child could tell me as she speaks perfect English and she's 8. The Indian mother seemed to manage to get it across to me ok when her dd came for a play date. I always ask any way if there's something they shouldn't eat.

I take on board what you say but in this instance and actually experiencing this situation with dd being told "I am only allowed to go to Muslim Houses and parties" seems pretty categorical to me.

I take on board what you say but in this instance and actually experiencing this situation with dd being told "I am only allowed to go to Muslim Houses and parties" seems pretty categorical to me.

Yes that seems clear.

7, 8, 9 years olds have told me the same, quite matter of factly. Clearly it is a decision some families make, for whatever reason.

HadMy - that's interesting what you say.

From a purely outside perspective, when I went to Lombok in Indonesia some years ago, one of our guides there was quite outspoken on the Taliban - he was ~18 and said that they had sent people over to Lombok (and other areas of Indonesia) to recruit the young men, mostly, to The Cause. He was a pretty relaxed Muslim himself - said he went to prayer about 5 times a week rather than 5 times a day - and wasn't at all interested in their brand of extremism (I got slightly told off by another lady there for calling it "fundamentalism", as the Taliban did not apparently subscribe to some of the fundamentals of Islam) but he knew a few who had had the fervour lit in them and gone to "training camps" or similar. He said the abductions and bombings in Lombok and Bali had been carried out by Taliban-infiltrated cells (I don't know about the more recent ones but it seems reasonable to assume the same source).

Suffice to say the op has probably popped out to post ukip flyers

That's a bit of an assumption.

Maybe she was genuinely trying to discuss something difficult and has been scared off by remarks such as that?

Nup. I read the op. Its goady.

Define goady.

And if it is a UKIP supporter, I'd rather engage with them than dismiss them.

Because I don't see the contradiction. I know UKIP are divisive arses and I also know many muslim DC do not socialise with non muslim DC.

The OP may have been goady, it's more that she hasn't returned that makes me suspect it, but others on the thread have written of similar experiences so I do think it's a subject worth addressing rather than just dismissing OP as a GF.

In fact, calling someone a UKIPPER (i.e. a xenophobic, anti-immigration type) without evidence is pretty bloody goady LEM

I think fear of the unknown is the problem both with people turning to terrorist version of any ideology. Nazis were afraid of Jews, Muslims are afraid of their children becoming westernised (we had this crazy idea installed in our heads growing up that West has abandoned family values). UKIP are afraid of other cultures changing 'British identity' if only we realise that most people just want to lead a normal life with its little pleasures. We should be able to judge ppl on their merit rather than outer trappings. We were taught only Muslims will go to heaven, I can't wrap my head around the idea that I am more worthy than mother Teresa!. People benefitting from religions depend on ppl not questioning anything and putting the blame on others for problems in their lives.
Even in the 14 years I have been here, my country has lost so much as a result of the intolerant doctrine.

And thanks to posters giving feedback on my ramblings ??

Nazis were afraid of Jews, Muslims are afraid of their children becoming westernised (we had this crazy idea installed in our heads growing up that West has abandoned family values). UKIP are afraid of other cultures changing 'British identity' if only we realise that most people just want to lead a normal life with its little pleasures.

Very wise Had

Could somebody explain the statement 'Nazis were afraid of Jews.'

I think it may have been the other way around. My mother's family emigrated because they were afraid of what the National Socialists were doing.

Rightly so. If they had remained in Germany, they would have been murdered.

I had never realised this to be such a problem until some mums were hostile when discussing the Muslim parents at my dcs school.

As I was friends with them, and had play dates and also spent time with them, sitting together on rugs at picnics in the park, I never knew there were people who dismissed muslims because they weren't exactly the same as them, and didn't seem remotely interested in putting in the time to develop the relationships.

We were always welcomed into their homes, and fed delicious food!
Having said that, I made sure my DH wasn't here, when we had their girls over, ate vegetarian food, and whenever we ate out at a pizza restaurant, one of the Muslim DHs felt more comfortable sitting at a separate table.

I think the militants of any culture give them all a bad name. With Islamic people's it's difficult to reach out, as they don't want to be harassed for the actions of the militants, and with the English, there can be a lack of education about how women Muslims who are devout conduct themselves(with modesty and gentleness- not pushing them selves forward).

Maybe offer to sit together at a local park and chat with the Muslim mums while the kids play together, OP. Making friends can be a slow process, but there are many shared values and experiences.
I like my Muslim friends, my Irish, Jewish and Sikh ones too, even some of my English ones aren't too bad!!

Don't forget to smile.

Marianne, I think what hadmytwo is saying is that the nazis whipped up fear in the Germans against the Jews as part of their propaganda.

It's easy to fear those we don't know, those who are segregated (either by themselves or by a pogrom or ghetto) and those who are demonised by our culture.

I personally think it's our moral duty as humans to reach out and see the humanity in everyone. I don't use the term moral duty here to indicate any religion btw, just that it's better for everyone if that fear is dissolved by knowledge, understanding and compassion.

I suspect the OP of being a GF too.

I do know of one family who think like this: dd1's erstwhile best friend's parents. Friend was quite open that she was not allowed to socialise with non-Muslims outside of school; parents used to glare, then turn on their heel & walk away if dh or I attempted to say hello in the playground.

In the end I asked our dc's part-time nanny (also a school mum, & Muslim) if she thought she could speak to them/reassure them with a view to inviting dd1's mate over to play. No point, she said, don't waste your time, they're a pair of bigoted arseholes who've already told me they think it's shocking that I work for a non-Muslim family & allow my kids to spend time at your house...

The only conclusion I drew from this was that the occasional 'bigoted arsehole' exists in all cultures & societies, which frankly wasn't anything I didn't already know. I carried on smiling at them, they carried on scowling back, the friendship between our dds ran its course.

If I started extrapolating from one family outwards to an entire cultural group, & chuntering that this was a problem with Muslims generally, I'd be as much of a bigoted arsehole as they were.

Marrianne.i think what was meant by this is that the nazi's did all of those awful things because they in some way felt threatened by jews. In the first place. Ive always felt that. Its a bit like the playground bully. They are often scared.

Marianne, I don't mean they had reason to be afraid but what I know of the ideology at work which resulted in holocaust is that Jews were seen to be rich and were thought of as different. This was used to breed hatred and resulted in their persecution.
Another thing I think is needed is self awareness and the knowledge that our little bubbles of society are not without blame when it comes to harmony. Things need to be done from all sides to integrate. We should give benefit of doubt to others.

As I was friends with them, and had play dates and also spent time with them, sitting together on rugs at picnics in the park, I never knew there were people who dismissed muslims because they weren't exactly the same as them,

I'm not sure what thread you're reading but the OP isn't about someone 'dismissing' muslims for not being 'exactly the same' as them. The other way around if anything. Your condescension isn't really helpful.

Perhaps you could explain to us how to force unwilling participants onto picnic rugs, though. Gunpoint?

I like my Muslim friends, my Irish, Jewish and Sikh ones too, even some of my English ones aren't too bad!!

Oh dear Venus you seem a little bit confused. Englishness is not a religion.

The only conclusion I drew from this was that the occasional 'bigoted arsehole' exists in all cultures & societies, which frankly wasn't anything I didn't already know. I carried on smiling at them, they carried on scowling back, the friendship between our dds ran its course.

If I started extrapolating from one family outwards to an entire cultural group, & chuntering that this was a problem with Muslims generally, I'd be as much of a bigoted arsehole as they were.

One family or an entire global religion? I think it is possible the answer lies somewhere in between actually.

But you're quite right, there is nothing to be done about people of fixed and irrational views, whoever they are.

I agree with Arsenic I don't think it's "occasional" but I don't think it's the norm either, thankfully.

It's a valid idea. Where a live many Muslim women aren't allowed to visit even the market without a male to chaperone, the male is question sometimes in their early teens chaperoning adult women. Why the shock?

Only works if there IS an older brother, though.

I'd try it, if it smoothed matters. Would it not be a problem, a 'man' being in a house if I was the only adult there at the time? Would it have worked in my single parent days? Would I need DH there?

It is the way of things coast