The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

And do you think that's ok Nicki? Chaperoning of girls and women just because they are female is not something I would be condoning or encouraging in any way.

Cripes. Pincer movement

Lottathese things are normal in London now.

Did I say that? No I did not? But we have been hammered with how we need to respect the Muslim culture and customs on this thread. Or is that only the ones we have no issue with and see in a sentimental light?

The chaperoning thing is not just a Muslim thing - it's cultural. My Indian in-laws (not Muslim) felt obliged to chaperone me everywhere when I first went there alone. They were when I said I was quite happy to move around on my own - they assumed that DH had flown with me to the airport! - but they did accept it eventually!

Chaperoning of girls and women just because they are female is not something I would be condoning or encouraging in any way.

I don't really see it as my place to encourage or condone the cultural practices of my guests. I'm not their mother.

I'd just be happy if all of my DD's friends were able to socialise freely.

I have sympathy with the Muslim families and people shouldn't be so quick to criticise. I wouldn't like my children eating halal food at someone's house as it's against my principles so you can see why people are cautious if it's the other way round. Also I don't want my son or daughter seeing girl children who are 'covered' and thinking that's normal. Everyone is free to wear what they like but the principle of covering is not something I am easy with. If Muslim families feel a similar way about non-Muslim families that's up to them.

Arsenic, erm, it's a joke?

Arsenic, I've lived in London for 13 years so thanks for that. Just because something is 'the norm' does not make it right.

We have a very different experience, but my sons Muslim friends live in Norway. Maybe it is different.

"Calvin", 12, is Lebanese. He is not allowed to go to birthday parties. My sons friends classmates got around this by calling it Summer parites etc, and opted to forego presents. They ate pizza, Cake, etc, and played. Calvin invited his friends to Winter parties at the time of his birthday, and got "Happy Winter Cards" from his friends.

"Yassin", 9, is from Morocco. His family let him attend birthday parties and celebrate his own. His mum would frequently invite me in for cups of tea and snacks, and we loved discussing religion together, finding we had more in common than dividing us.

If the boys came to play I would cook chicken or fish for dinner, if we went for a picnic I would pack sandwiches with jam or chicken spreads. Chicken burger at burger king as a treat, etc. We took the boys skiing and mountain hiking, which they loved.

I find both families had found ways of integrating yet keep their religion and their traditions their own way, and were happy to send their children (sons and daughters) to play at the homes of non-muslim familes, and happy to invite back.

My oldest in particular loved to play at Calvins house, as his dad is a chef, and would cook delicious food.

I think it depends on the families.

I also think the English are the same, in my experience they are happy to keep to themselves and not too keen to establish new friends with foreigners. (The adults) There are exceptions of course!

The thing is, I strongly suspect that dd1's friend's parents would have been just as unlovely in their attitude towards people outside their own self-defined group if they'd been directly descended from Boudicca!

Probably ardent Kippers in that case, in fact.

They were just churlish, prejudiced & rude; representative of nothing & nobody but their own unlikeable selves. My nanny was absolutely infuriated by them; having come across some anti-Muslim prejudice herself when working as a childminder, she had no time at all for a family from her own mosque apparently doing their best to live up to a damaging stereotype.

Arsenic, I've lived in London for 13 years so thanks for that. Just because something is 'the norm' does not make it right.

But when your 9 year old DD is crying because Yas is never allowed to come to play, do we care at that point about judging other people?

Surely if you live in London with liberal feminist views you are used to explaining different cultural practices to your DC by now?

coast yes ... Seriously! I thought it a good idea too given the mum didn't know me very well apart from a face at school and English was a second language - it smoothed things over considerably!

It's not churlish and rude if you are concerned about your child eating non-halal, or, I don't know, something against the religion or the principles. People are allowed to mix with who they want, so if they want to mix with people with the same religion, possibly even language, then that's the way it is, it's not necessarily rude.

It's upsetting for the children when they consider themselves good (best) friends, but aren't allowed to see each other outside of school Baker

What would the reaction be if the OP had said to her DD, you can't go on a playdate because you are not going to a Muslim household. I feel sure there would be cries of racism.

Why is it acceptable the other way round. When in Rome....

"People are allowed to mix with who they want"

Unless they're children and then their parents decide for them?

Yes that is sad. It can be very upsetting for one or both children but you can't force people allow their children to socialise outside school. I probably wouldn't let mine go to a house with halal food for tea tbf, but they have lots of time to play in school time.

By people Nicki I suppose I meant parents. But the children see each other in school don't they?

Very good point amothersplace. Like an earlier poster says, diversity should work both ways. Its sad and wrong and highly prejudiced if children are forbidden from mixing with children who are not of their own faith group or culture.

School is very controlled environment though, they'll only have time to play for about an hour a day, if that, obviously they will want to play with other friends too. So it's hardly getting to spend some decent down time together is it? I wouldn't like only getting to see my best mate at work.

Yes but that's what they would object to I suppose, the fact that it's uncontrolled and unpredictable. It must be very bad though when there is an overwhelming majority in an area and the tiny minority gets totally left out.

the fact that it's uncontrolled and unpredictable.

Not a very charitable view to take of another person's home.

If I saw a pleasant, clean, polite, cared-for child everyday at the schoolgate, I'd struggle to assume their home environment was 'uncontrolled and unpredictable'.

Speaking personally, I always invite parents along when inviting children to play anyway, at least the first time.

Maybe I chose the wrong words, but not knowing what food they will eat or whether something will be done or said which is against the religion - that's what I meant.