The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

Wiki Islam does seem to have an agenda, as expressed on its home page wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam

The stated agenda seems simply a neutral approach.

Critique:
a detailed analysis and assessment of something, especially a literary, philosophical, or political theory.

let alone talk that they should leave the country.

Who said that!?

Thanks for confirming wikiislam was not a neutral source BTW Ipity

Did you seriously just post a definition of the word "critique"? How incredibly patronising.

Look, just look up wikiIslam on the main Wikipedia. It tells you exactly who created the site and what their agenda is.

Arsenic, the OP of the thread ws the one who gave the kids alcoholic pasta dish. It wasn't intoxicating but for flavour and she genuinely didn't realise it would upset anyone. It wad kind of a 'oops I didn't realise this would upset my SIL' thread.

I did go to a 3 yr old birthday party and was a bit surprise they were serving alcohol (to the grown ups) and spaghetti bolognaise. i wouldn't have gone if I had known that in advance. I was expecting tea and cheese sandwiches.

That said my kids do go to non Muslim households occassionally. However they go to 'Islamic' weekend school and are expected to visit family and spend family time my dh who works in the week and feels he doesn't see them enough. Once you have added in Brownies/Beavers and teakwondo playdates are low on our priority list and are pretty infrequent.

The main Wikipedia doesn't have that page?

This is the stated agenda:

WikiIslam is a community edited website which focuses on the critique of Islam, whilst also allowing pro-Islamic responses in separate articles.

Its stated agenda is neutral, unless you count the 'pro-Muslim responses' part. Religious people often find a rational critique to be hostile to their beliefs when it's simply a rational critique.

You may have different reasons for believing it to be anti-Islam, but they aren't in the stated agenda and they aren't in the main wikipedia page (I assume you mean the List of Wikis?) which gives the same stated agenda.

I am aware that MuslimWiki is run by Muslims; it's rather patronising to point that out when the home page makes it rather clear. You linked to somewhere else, so I was wondering about your own opinion of MuslimWiki. It was a genuine inquiry for an opinion, I'm so sorry that you felt the need to be withering.

Not read the whole thread, will do shortly. But this really isn't a problem where I live. Both my children are friends with Muslim children. If one comes to play the parents just tell me what food/activities are appropriate for their family and their interpretation of the Koran, and if in doubt I serve vegetarian food. I find different peoples interpretation of halal and haram very wildly from extremely observant to just a nod to cultural and historical norms.

Birthday parties have never been an issue, even with DS's friend whose parents don't speak English and have only very recently moved here. As they get older half of all his peer group will either be at football or Islamic school anyway of a weekend so it makes no different what the activity is.

I really hope this doesn't change now they are at secondary school. DD is much younger and at her birthday party I will probably forgoe my ritual glass of prosecco until after the children have gone if my friend and her daughter come. I wouldn't if we went out for a meal together but I want her and her children to feel relaxed and comfortable in my home.

Arsenic, the OP of the thread ws the one who gave the kids alcoholic pasta dish. It wasn't intoxicating but for flavour and she genuinely didn't realise it would upset anyone. It wad kind of a 'oops I didn't realise this would upset my SIL' thread.

I did go to a 3 yr old birthday party and was a bit surprise they were serving alcohol (to the grown ups) and spaghetti bolognaise. i wouldn't have gone if I had known that in advance. I was expecting tea and cheese sandwiches.

There are always a few 'interesting' people about I suppose

We had a slight issue at our year 6 leavers BBQ last year. As the non halal food was ready before the halal & quite a few children dived straight in, despite the fact I know their parents wouldn't approve. The kids all new which was which. In the end we left them to it, but I wasn't sure what do. I figured at 11 it was up to them to decide what to eat.

Frustrated - A website that claims rape and honor killing are permitted in Islam is not providing a "rational critique", but an outright distortion of the religion.

Oh I see - you do have different reasons for believing it to be anti-Islam. But some people who call themselves Muslims do believe those things which you describe. It's interesting that you choose to shoot the messenger here?

Frustrated I pointed out that a website that a website cited was not a reliable source of information. Which I thought was being quite helpful.

I suppose the bottom line is that the OP's daughter cannot really mix out of school with her Muslim friends because of large cultural differences. These differences have a big implication for community cohesion in today's society.I wonder what the Muslim community thinks of that - does it matter that the 2 sections of society do not readily mix?

When I went to school there were catholic schools and protestant schools. It was horrible - a lot of ignorance, bullying, non-mixing of kids... absolutely stupid. I hate the idea that kids are separated on the grounds or religion, race, gender, origin, etc.

Societies do mix, but in some cases people don't. I was talking to someone recently and she was telling me that she had friends at school (this would have been the 70s and 80s) from China and Italy, and the friends has heavy accents (although born here) and the parents spoke little English. So this is not a 'new' issue. Maybe we are getting more intolerant/suspicious of religion - and this cuts both ways.

My older relatives (brought up in the ME) went to convent/monastery schools, and they were from very respectable observant muslim families. The families did not see a problem with mixing with/being taught by foreigners/other religions. It wasn't and issue at all. This wouldn't happen there nowadays though. I do hear some dubious 'rules' bandied about by some people. I'm sure they make them up as they go along.

I remember the Catholic / Protestant, English / Irish stuff in the 1970s/80s and it was horrid but it was due to the troubles in Northern Ireland and the IRA bombings in England. However, the Northern Ireland stuff was about territory rather than religion per se. It was just an aside that Catholics tend to be the indigenous population of Ireland. I can see a similarity here with Islam. Political / religious unrest makes people suspicious.

This was in Scotland...

Oh, OK, NiceName. I was in Liverpool. I know. Scotland is different. Isn't it still a bit the same over Celtic and Rangers?

And yet, interestingly, religion can sometimes bring people together. I worked for a time with a girl from South Africa; she was white, and was brought up in SA while Apartheid still prevailed. BUT she went to a Catholic primary school; and they allowed children of any colour into the school. So she had friends who were black, friends who were mixed race, and friends who were white. This was fine and acceptable at primary level, apparently - but there was no secondary school available, and they then had to go their separate ways to schools appropriate to their race/skin colour. Soon they were unable to even mix with each other in the street - and she was sad because she lost her best friend this way. (She also told me that the children who had it worst were the mixed race ones - they weren't black and they weren't white and didn't fit in anywhere properly :( )

So in that particular instance, religion was less divisive than race - but obviously only if the children were Catholic! I couldn't say whether or not they allowed non-Catholics into the school, she didn't say.

Coming from the perspective of an ethnic minority who's parents did exactly what the OP describes, not allowing play dates or any kind of socialising outside of school with 'white' people, I found it miserable and divisive. I ended up with very few friends outside my ethnic group and it took until university to really open up my perspective and friends circle.

Religion really had nothing to do with it, it was cultural, a feeling that 'they're not like us'. The OP's post saddens me as I'd assumed the generation after my parents would be more inclusive.

OP: there's nothing you can do about it and frankly it only gets worse as the children get older. I'd be as frustrated as you are about it, parents should encourage their childrent to integrate and learn from each other. Whether thats a play date at home or inviting a non-muslim to come to mosque to see what it's like.
I certainly won't be bringing dd up in such an insular way.

Million - if you don't mind the question - what was your parents reasoning? I find it so odd that people choose (I am guessing) to live somewhere, yet look down on the people, culture, food, religion, lifestyles, etc to the extent that they almost refuse to acknowledge their existence and live in their own little enclaves.

And yes, I have heard of Brits doing it on the costa del nasty, but have only really only met Brits living in places in France and Italy who have blended well into the community, and although are proud of their own roots, embrace their new homes.

Nicename - I don't think they had any logical reason as they were being completely irrational! It was probably just fear of the unknown, fear that people in their community would gossip, fear of losing control over their children.
As time's gone on they've realised they were wrong (though they'd never openly admit it).

If we are all "children of the world" now, which was said to me by a mum of a mixed racial background child(as mine) while they were playing happily together. My kids are half English and half Brazilian, always questioning thier identity. However why are the children of non-mixed, foreign nationality(originally) so non-integrational and defensive of their culture? I have many different coloured/ethnicity/religious background friends, yet we are tolerant and enjoy the camaraderie and jokes and the fact we survived the 70's,80's etc... I am English, but what is missing here, unlike Brazil(my wife ) is no matter what your religion, Colour or class, EVERYONE is BRAZILIAN, and proud of their nationality. It is truly great to see. They all support Brazil in football, and the strength of being together through nationality is overwhelming. Why is this not so here?

You reanimated a "Zombie Thread"....