The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

It's not the same thing at all ! Of course I don't expect every child in school to want to befriend my daughter or see her outside of school - be they Hindu, Muslim, Catholic or whatever. The Muslims in my community (London N22) simply do not allow their children to mix with non-Muslims outside of school. I am writing this in June 2017 - having revisited this thread. Nothing has changed and while there are far more good and nice Muslim people in the UK than not - they largely still won't let their daughters integrate properly and this is what creates tensions and suspicion in mixed communities.

Muslim household here. Not everyone is the same and frankly I'd avoid these kinds of holier than thou people as well. We are not compatible in the same way as I wouldn't necessarily wish to socialise with EDL supporters either. That being said, some people are just scared of their kids going out into the unknown so need some coaxing. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. Some of the kindest, most liberal - minded people I know are very religious.

Sorry to hear this op! We are Muslim and the kids mix freely with anyone - which is as it should be!

Wow. Never seen an OP reactivate a thread years later like this.

I read pages and pages to find I had commented back in 2014 .

Maybe the parents at DD's school just don't like the OP...

🙁 sorry to hear this. Sometimes it is because the parents are not aware of other cultures or religions which makes them limit their kids unnecessarily. Don't take it personal it's the parents fault not the children.

Is this still active? I would love to get some concrete advice from both Muslim and non-Muslim mumsnetters who have more experience than I do on few basic points I should take into account interacting with families with traditional Bangladesh and Pakistan village background to avoid unnecessary friction. We've had some socialisation out of school, but not that much and it would be good to navigate how to give the children more such opportunities.

I was not raised in the UK myself, but in Germany and I feel I am lacking some reference points, like I missed 40 years of on and off discussion about this as I didn't go to school here myself. Muslims in Germany, when I still lived there were predominantly Turkish, which is different.

My daughter is actually going home today with a friend from a family with Muslim Bangladesh village background. It wasn't that easy to organise, but eventually I managed; maybe we were just very blunt and persistent (living up to common stereotypes about Germans). Is there any thing to take into account when I further interact with the parents, for example when I pick her up?

Of course it would be nice to also invite her friend over. And much simpler than having them go to their house, because we live so much close to the school. How can I reassure parents from a traditional Muslim Bangladeshi/Pakistani village background, that their child is not going to be exposed to anything bad in our house? I intuitively think there is really nothing they could be afraid off in our specific case, but obviously I need to find out what their concerns may be before drawing that conclusion. The obvious thing is halal, but we are vegetarian anyway. What else do I need to think about?

I understand the feeling of being afraid to let children go to other houses in a country where the customs are not entirely engrained into how you were raised. Here in the UK I am not afraid, but I lived in the US and it crossed my mind that if we stayed there I would for example have to face my children visiting houses where it's normal to have a gun, not even stored away securely, but say in the mother's handbag. When they were younger, I was also concerned about the degree of violence in movies they might show the kids at home. I also have experience with parents' concerns and fears from my own childhood, because in those days catholics and protestants and atheists hardly mixed naturally, let alone across social classes; if the post is still active I can talk more about that.

For now I would be really grateful to hear mumsnetters concrete suggestions how to get around hurdles and build trust and confidence, or tell me what are impossible expectations.

Posting into this thread as there is so little information and discussion out there on this topic. This is such an upsetting issue. After many attempts to reach out and arrange meet-ups with my son's (10) best and main friend at school I ended up trying to just get an honest answer from the father as to whether it would ever be allowed.

We tried everything - we explained that we would always respect the religion, e.g. halal, no alcohol in the house, meeting outside the home etc. Plans were agreed and then at the last minute they'd be cancelled with excuses. After several instances like this we were then told that there was no time as the friend had to study every minute outside of school. Yet every day he is online doing almost unrestricted gaming which our son often wants to join. It was so important to my son to have his friend at his birthday and I was unable to make this happen. It was at this point I felt I had to find out whether it was simply forbidden rather than my son continuing to hope.

I did my research online and can see that there are some interpretations of islam, not as uncommon as I'd have imagined, that suggest believers should not make friends outside the religion - specific verses of the Koran are cited. Whilst moderate muslims clearly see this as wrong, I think it is more common than certainly i'd ever have imagined. On the other hand it is also clear that it is important to always be polite and friendly. I think this may be why we were just told what were really lies as to hangouts that would happen.

My biggest issue is people being truthful. If it is genuinely not permitted just tell us, then we can be honest with our children. I think it is deeply wrong for any religion to exclude others from friendship and the reason for many problems in the world. When I asked whether this was the case it was denied, and more excuses given with a 'maybe one day' - when I pushed on when one day might be it became very clear it was never. I am very sad for both him and his friend that this attitude and interpretation of religion exists. I think it needs to be called out and addressed.

seriously? you think I'm a racist troll for wanting my son to be able to meet up with his best friend - and for thinking that interpretations of religion that don't permit this are really sad.

I joined mumsnet just to reply to this. Those of you accusing the OP and others of being borderline fascists for simply questioning a possible integration issue need to get a grip.

I grew up in a Muslim household, in a predominantly Muslim community in the north. Segregation is a huge issue and although it stemmed from a genuine need to stay safe & succeed initially in the 60’s and 70’s, many in such communities still hold on to problematic cultural & religious beliefs & practices that at best stop them integrating and at worse breed a supremacist mindset where any non believer is seen as lesser. I am now ex Muslim because for me, it made zero sense & it’s not how I wished to live my life.

Muslims come in many shapes & sizes and some are barely by the book (thankfully imo) these days, making them liberal & better integrated. Those following the religion ‘as it should be’ (according the the Quran and accompanying Hadith’s) will be extreme by any western standard.

I grew up in the 90’s & 2000’s, I went to a girls school (my choice but only because alll the Muslim girls went there & I wanted to be with my friends), play dates were never a thing. We never went out or got to do anything. To this day I can’t ride a bike or swim (life skills.. not comparable to sending your kids to a culture class on a Saturday like some fool commented). My mum had different plates, cups & cutlery for non Muslim guests/neighbours/workmen because she believed they were haram as they ate pork/drank etc. I found this embarrassing and totally not okay even as a child. I was forced to attend Arabic school and my home life was pretty strict, until I got in to my teens and rebelled. They finally gave up and I actually ended up with a lot of freedom by the time I was 18. My parents are actually very liberal compared to 90% of the Muslims I grew up around (which says a lot), in the sense that I was never disowned. Violence was used but that was perhaps a mixture of class, generational trauma, culture and no doubt the trappings of a misogynistic religious doctrine.

I find it laughable when liberal non muslim folks, especially women, think they are doing the world a favour by supporting segregation on the grounds of cultural context & tolerance. NO. It’s perfectly okay to challenge the BS. I’m glad my teachers did. My uncles tried to stop me from going to university as girls shouldn’t do that, but my teachers informed me of my rights and challenged by parents as I was one of the smartest kids in my year. If they had ‘respected cultural and religious differences’ I’d probably be married to a cousin with 7 kids I didn’t want. By silencing conversations like this using racism and allegations of bigotry as your crutch you are doing no one any favours. We need open, honest conversations about religion and integration. Any religion in an extreme form is problematic, problem is that Islam when practiced as it should be is divisive. Most religions, including Islam, are supremacist in nature.

I was constantly scolded for wanting to be like ‘white people’, it wasn’t about race more so a general way of saying ‘westernised’ or ‘non Muslims’. All this because I chose to not wear a hijab, or jeans over shalwar kameez, or wanting to go to a concert. It was suffocating honestly.

Non Muslims should note that you get brownie points in Islam for converting others, it’s a significant part of the doctrine, so when sending your kids to the homes of Muslims be sure that they are not falling prey to indoctrination. I grew up Muslim and when I did go over to my cousins, their neighbours and the elders would not stop going on about the beauty of Islam, to us, children of about 8-10 years of age, because to them we aren’t Muslim ENOUGH. One of the ‘uncles’ was notorious for preaching to the local non Muslims. I think 2nd and 3rd generation are perhaps more chill but it really depends on where you live and how educated the parents are. When Muslims find out I’m am ex Muslim, the preaching starts again. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam which is why you’ll never see me in a Muslim country.

I would like to add that a lot of Muslims in the west just want to live their lives in peace and aren’t bothered by what non-Muslims do, especially these days, many are ‘cultural Muslims’ meaning they aren’t bound by the strict parameters of the actual ‘by the book’ doctrine. My family, the younger generation, my cousins and their kids are all like this and it’s refreshing. Also education & wealth play a part, we can now afford to give them the things we didn’t get/were denied.

The reason why so many of us don’t talk about our experiences so bluntly is because our words can be weaponised by genuine racists and used to harm the people we love and care for, & us because we are still not seen as British by some, despite being born here. BUT these conversations are important, and need to be had in a way that’s honest and productive.

Equally I can’t stand when Muslims defend BS simply because they are Muslim and feel they have to. A poster above had the audacity to say some of the most liberal people she knows are ‘very religious’, that’s delusion! It’s simply impossible, you can’t be ‘very religious’ and be liberal in Islam. You can be very invested in the Muslim culture/traditiond and liberal, very spiritual and liberal.. but never VERY RELIGIOUS and liberal. In the west we have the privilege of practicing whatever we want, however we want, thankfully! But try that in any country with sharia and let’s see how liberal you can be..

I understand what u are going through my experience was very much the same but different to the understanding it would be a little bit easier for my daughter at a all Muslim school as my daughter is Muslim her self but still as my self being a white revert and her dad a full pakistani that was not the cause at first she was OK made her group of friend's but the only communications there was with her friends was after school on her phone and social media this went on for most of her primary school years then suddenly in the last year 6 befor going to secondary school she come home one day in so much pain crying for hours and saying harmful things about what she was going to do to her self I was scared of what to do next in this situation her education now was put on hold I couldn't see her moving forward it was all her friends she spent all through school turning on her telling her she not like us and your mum is white your a mix breed and so on it was very hard for her and my self to get her to return back to her last year at school also it ment her secondary school was not going to happen as all them friends was going there so I had to find another school for her now she at 12 has to get a bus in. The morning to school that takes her 40 minutes travelling and I worry about her all the time but now she has been placed in a more English school and has all English friends that go out to shop park and shopping together I don't mind her going out as long as she takes her phone and text's or calls me every time she decides to go somewhere else commuicaton is the key to your child's future and being a Muslim my self I believe u have to give your child some freedom and happiness out of home space why I allways say the difference between children and adults when it comes to religion and culture and coluer is lake of eagication from parents to there children we all live in the same country and why it should be important to have this opportunity to be a part of every lifes struggles and be heard

Thanks so much for openly talking about this issue as it is real.
I grew up with muslim friends but they were still a minority in my area in comparison, and we got on well and folks met up after school, mums had tea while we went to the park etc. i thought I'd grown up with at least a basic understanding about halal food and have nothing but respect for people's religious beliefs so moving to an area with a high level of Muslim families didn't seem like a thing other than a great thing for her as far as seeing more life styles.

I walked into my daughters preschool thinking I'd be super adaptable and invite mums out for tea so the kids could play and socialise. Knew to offer to work around prayer times and mosque visits.
Then figured it was just too young and assumed things would be easier at primary school.
By the time my daughter was 6 she'd had one playdate ever , and that was because her friend was moving away. Our neighbours son (early teens) let slip that his sisters (same age as my girl) would never be allowed to our house next door.

After many attempts to invite folk to the park, to parties, to playdates, to any kind of social event at any location we'd get smiles at the school gate and then no response.
We gave out our number and really really tried to show we wanted to be flexible and accommodate any needs. Always invited the parents as well as the children.

Nothing. And my daughter cried when no one turned up to her parties and never got an invite to anything.

We have now moved schools and she's already been invited to play after school. I cried.

This has not changed my opinion on immigration (it's what's given us so much richness in our country). I will never vote ukip or reform or whatever group wants to divide humanity. I will still speak out against islamophobia.

But that does not negate what we experienced. It was painful seeing my daughter miss out on what we felt were normal child activities. We did try to speak to the school about how we could be more adaptable but she was the only non religious child in her class and no one can force people to allow children to socialise.

So ultimately we made a decision for our childs social development but it wont stop me having a halal /vegan/kosher corner in my cupboard to accommodate future chances at friendship.

No answers as to who is right or wrong. Whether thats even a question. Just saying it can happen, it does happen, and not everyone is the same within a town, city, culture or religion.

Hope everyone who has felt thier child being ostracised can get judgement free support.